Africa's Pulse | What will it take to improve public services and restore trust?

00:00 Welcome and main insights of the report
06:25 Trends in public trust
09:59 Restoring trust: The case of Ghana
13:11 Change of perceptions in governments
20:05 Responding to rising aspirations
24:39 Transparency and public service delivery
28:50 Enabling a business environment for job creation
34:05 Inclusive policy making
38:21 Taxation and quality of public services
42:47 Policies and service delivery
46:26 Power and political interests
49:24 Closing remarks

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] [Chief Executive Officers, The Conversation Strategists - Moderator] Hello, and welcome to Africa's Pulse, where we are going to be unpacking the 31st edition with the World Bank's Africa Chief Economist, Dr. Andrew Dabalen, with two regional experts. My name is Nozipho Tshabalala, and what an absolute pleasure it is to be your host today. Now, in this particular conversation, we really want to shine the spotlight on the urgent need to improve governance and public service delivery in the region. We know that too few people have access to basic services like water, education, health care, and too little money is going where it is intended to go. So, to help us set the scene for the conversation, Andrew is really going to give us the big picture landscape of what's happening in the region from a macroeconomic perspective. We're interested in hearing his thoughts on the big numbers and the big trends, and then our regional experts, who I'll introduce a little bit later, are going to come into the conversation to help us unpack some of the issues that are shaping the big questions in the region. I'm talking about questions like accountability, fair taxation, what do we do about a fractured social contract. And of course, the big question is how does this all translate into public service delivery for people on the ground? One final thing that we're going to do is to include the voices of young people from across the continent, primarily from civil society as they step into the conversation with their own questions and their own comments, and we're really looking forward to a robust engagement. And so, without further ado, Andrew, I do want to bring you into the conversation. I want to spend a little bit of time with you just unpacking the key messages that have come out of this 31st edition, but in particular, sharing with us what are the big numbers or the big trends that have come out?

[ANDREW DABALEN] [Chief Economist, Africa Region, World Bank] Thank you so much, Nozipho. This is great. It's great to be with you again and to be in company of these distinguished panelists that we have, Naledi and Joseph. So, you asked me to talk about three big numbers or trends. Let me focus on trends. The first one is the fact that I think one positive is that African growth continues to hold. African economic activity is expected to increase from about 3.3% in 2024 to 3.5% in 2025, and then accelerating further to about 4.3% in 2026 and 2027. And this is primarily because of the fact that inflation is holding steady. We have a return of investments a little bit modestly. We also have recovery of services and agriculture. That is sort of what is underlying that. The second big trend that we're watching is the fact that trade and economic policy uncertainty is just off the charts. Now, the direct impacts of this return to protectionism is not that large when we actually look at Africa. However, the indirect effects that come from lower growth at the global level, lower investment flaws, lower exports for Africans, higher risk of inflation is expected to be much, much larger. That's an important trend that we're watching. And the final, the third, is that even though African countries have time to grow, the inability of African governments to deliver basic functions like security and basically economic stability, particularly jobs, has led to protests, significant levels of protests, which have increased by almost two and a half times relative to a decade ago. It has led to the rise of armed and extremist groups, it has led to militarization of politics, and of course, it has led to coups. So, these are the big events that are taking place. Now, there's a lot more we can talk about from the report, but since you asked for three, those are the three big ones that I wanted to share with our audiences.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Andrew, I think it's an excellent framing that you give us into the conversation because it allows us then to come in and really begin to unpack some underlying drivers that we're seeing showing up in a lack of service delivery, a lack of accountability, low taxation, or at least revenue collection, and all of that's going to unpack. But I think it's quite important that you raise also, of course, the big conversation in the world around the trade and economic policy and actually distinguishing the impact that is having on the region. So, before I invite Naledi and Joseph, who I'm going to introduce shortly, I want to highlight again that we are very, very proud of the fact that we're going far and wide across the continent. We're going to be hearing from people, young people in Guinea, in Mozambique, in Ghana, and so many more that have sent us excellent questions that I'm quite keen for us to get into. So, let me bring the two voices in. So, Naledi Madela is a senior policy advisor in the Ministry of Finance in Botswana. She comes into this conversation with an excellent background in research and policy, and she's also previously served as chief economist at APSA Bank in Botswana. Joseph Asunka is the CEO of Afrobarometer. Now, we know that Afrobarometer is a pan-African survey research organization that does incredible work around public attitude, surveys on democracy, on governance, on the economy, and a range of social issues. So, to yourself, Naledi, and to Joseph, thank you so much for being here. I want to bring you into the conversation, and I want to build on some of the comments that Andrew has shared with us. And of course, we'll bring Andrew back into the conversation. And maybe where I want to start is with you, Joseph, because Andrew talks to us about some of the big trends and the big numbers that are coming out of the region. I know that you're probably looking at big trends yourself at Afrobarometer, and one of those is what are you seeing in terms of trends in public trust in the region? Because at the end of the day, when all this comes together, it distills to a question of is there public trust or not in the governance systems we have in place?

[JOSEPH ASUNKA] [Chief Executive Officer, Afrobarometer] Yeah, thanks so much for this, and thanks to the African region of the World Bank and to Andrew and his team for this invitation. I do think you have hit the nail right on the head when you talk about trust and public trust in institutions and in their government. As Andrew mentioned, some of the public service delivery gaps is what is driving some of the trends that we are recording in our surveys. As you know, we conduct these surveys in more than 30 countries on the continent. And since 1999, our inception, we've been asking Africans how might they trust some of the institutions of democratic governance in their countries? The sad news is that trust in institutions, especially the formal institutions of democratic governance, has been low and declining over time. So, let's say a decade ago, 10 years ago, around 2011, 2015, when we asked Africans how much they trusted their institutions of governance, the presidency, the judiciary, and the legislature, we had more than half, like majority of Africans at that time said they trusted these institutions. Fast track to 2023, across the continent, the average is lower than 50%. Now, we have less than 50% of Africans saying they trust these three key institutions of democratic governance. So, another point in terms of trust is that trust in the military, traditional leaders, and religious leaders has been high and has remained so and actually increasing in some cases, especially when it comes to the military. Africans are increasingly more trusting of the military in their countries than they do their presidency. There's executive branch, the legislature, and the judiciary. And of course, some people would normally ask why do some Africans go out there to celebrate when the military takes over? I know Andrew mentioned about coups. And that is one of the key drivers that citizens tend to trust the military more than the democratic institution, the core democratic institutions of government. And when insecurity becomes a problem, I know Andrew mentioned this in his highlight, when insecurity is increasingly becoming a problem and people trust the military more than their executive, then that is when you see that anytime the military intervenes, people feel that they need to celebrate. And so, these are the two big trends we are seeing that trust in the core institutions of democratic governance is declining. Meanwhile, trust in the military seems to be going up.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] So, Joseph, I think that's fascinating. I'm watching Naledi and Andrew as you're speaking, and I can see the affirmation and endorsement of what you're sharing with us, a trust in formal institutions on the decline and a rise in trust of military, religious, and traditional leaders. Before I move on to Naledi, I think just to build on what you shared with us, Joseph, if we take a closer look as to where you're operating from, that is Ghana. We know that there's been a transition of power there. If you're looking at the new administration at the moment, what levers do they have or tools do you think are available at their disposal that they could be using to try and restore trust and to rebuild the social contract in Ghana?

[JOSEPH ASUNKA] I'm glad you asked this question. Let me address this question by looking at policy priorities, which I was beginning to talk [inaudible] security as one issue. So, we've been asking African citizens about their policy priorities, and on average, across the continent, over time, consistently since 1999, unemployment has always topped every policy issue. Unemployment is the most important issue that majority of Africans want their government to address, and this is particularly so for young people. Okay. But then, when I come back to Ghana itself and looking at the new administration, you talk about what levers do they have to gain public trust in this particular context. So, the previous administration, there were three key things that people got frustrated with that administration, and I'm going to mention those three, and then say why those should be the levers for this government. So, first was corruption. The second issue was official impunity, and the third issue is insensitivity or non-response to citizen voice. These were the core three things that frustrated Ghanaians with the previous administration, and I think the new administration will do well if they begin to look at these three core levers. They are minimal, but I think these are the key ones. So, the administration must look into dealing with corruption in the country, especially corruption in the public sector. I think this is one of the one things that really drove Ghanaians so mad and they went to the polls to change. The second one, as I mentioned, official impunity. It got to a point where people felt people in power, when they commit crimes, they can get away with it. This government would need to rethink that, to say that if an official commits a crime, they can't get away with it, and that will certainly build a lot of public trust. And the final point I want to mention is the insensitivity of governments to their citizens. So, when the previous administration of Ghana started to introduce an electronic levy, that is a tax on mobile money transactions, we conducted a survey, and almost more than 80% of Ghanaians resisted that tax. The government went ahead, ignored it, did not hold any public engagements to try to convince people why this is necessary, and went ahead to pass the law.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] So, Joseph, I'm going to take this experience that you painted for us. I'm going to go all the way from West Africa in Ghana. I'm going to work my way down to the Southern Africa region. I want to go to Botswana, where we've also seen a change in government, Naledi. And if we follow some of the reports, we're told that it's potentially, potentially because of a rise in public scrutiny of public finances and, of course, public service. In your view, especially as you sit in a privileged position of advising government, what do you think has led to the change in perception?

[NALEDI MADALA] [Senior Policy Advisor, Ministry of Finance, Botswana] Thank you so much, Nozipho, and thank you so much for the World Bank, Andrew, on your team for the opportunity to engage. To answer your question, Nozipho, I think that the change in government is really a confluence of issues. I think, firstly, the citizens have become more informed. As Joseph has already said, the citizens are more vocal and they're more engaged in public discourse. I think they're demanding transparency, they're demanding efficiency, and they simply just want a government that works in principle. I mean, a government that works not just in principle, but in practice. So, I think that the electoral outcome was a political shift. It was a call for a new social contract. And this new social contract needs to prioritize accountability. It needs to prioritize improved service delivery and inclusive growth. As you know, Botswana has one of the highest income inequalities. I think, secondly, it's also a reflection of a deep sense of fatigue and frustration from the people. I think over the years, we have watched, or Botswana have watched very ambitious reforms that have been announced throughout the years with great promise, but a lot of these have failed to actually translate into tangible improvements in their lives. So, there's been such a visible gap of what you see in policy and paper and the impact on the ground. And I think this frustration gets to manifest in their day-to-day activities, in how they experience their government. People are increasingly disappointed when they queue at public offices for very long times, the delay in accessing basic social services, as you've already mentioned yourself, and just inconsistent in the availability and maintenance of infrastructure across the country. If you are a farmer in rural Botswana and you depend on or you make a living out of your farm produce, you expect your government to actually have roads for you so that you can be able to access markets. So, the lack of that is what has, over the years, really just built a lot of frustration, but I think, as you've already said, this erosion in trust has also been compounded by the current fiscal pressures, where we have seen over the years a depletion in foreign reserves or the national buffers and government savings that had previously really served as a cushion during difficult times. So, yes, there was a lot of scrutiny in the finances, but I think also issues of service delivery have been very key.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] So, Naledi, I think it's a really great addition into helping us paint the picture or the canvas even broader beyond the example of Ghana, but really begin to see the trend come alive in the region. But I want to maybe double click on something, and that is as you are advising in the Ministry of Finance, you are literally in the trenches of trying to strike a balance between meeting the needs of the citizens in terms of public services, but also doing that as efficiently as possible and as effectively as possible and really making sure that the public funds are doing the best work possible for citizens on the ground. It can't be an easy job. If you were to highlight the biggest things that keep you awake at night, the biggest challenges in getting that balance right, what would you put as front and center so that we also have a fuller appreciation of how all the stakeholders are really navigating this space?

[NALEDI MADALA] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that, Nozipho. I think one of the biggest challenges in government is the fragmentation in the systems and the siloed operations across the government machinery. I think this makes it very hard for government departments to actually work together effectively. So, the citizens expect and deserve, they don't just expect it, they actually deserve a public service that is responsive, a public service that is timely, and a public service that is cost effective. But I think in order to be able to solution for the current setup, one needs to sort of step back and look critically at the long-standing practices to be able to reimagine how we deliver value as a government. So, I think we have embarked on a government efficiency initiative. This was announced in the budget speech, and this initiative is really aimed at unlocking value across the government machinery, across the ministries, across the departments and the agency. I'll give you an example of part of the work that we are doing to just reimagine how government manages the fleet management, government fleet management. I think when I speak about this, it might seem like a technical or a logistical issue on the surface, but when you really think about it, in reality, it has significant service delivery implications. Just by reviewing, and looking, and reforming how government manages its fleets, you are looking at how that fleet is being procured, you are looking at how it's being maintained, you are looking at how it's being utilized. So, we are not only targeting the direct cost savings, but also trying to enhance operational efficiency of the entire transportation system because at the end of the day, if public servants have reliable and well-managed transport, their ability to reach communities, their ability to respond to the needs of the people, and their ability to deliver essential services on time, it just improves dramatically. So, the whole government efficiency process or initiative that we have taken, I believe that it has a multiplier effect. One, you are saving fiscally, but also you are improving service delivery outcomes at the same time. I think we are taking a very data-driven approach, it's very systemic. And we're not just trying to patch up the inefficiencies, but we are redesigning the system with sustainability and citizen impact at the forefront of what we are trying to do.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Sure, a systemic approach, a data-driven approach with the citizen at the center. And all of that sounds really promising, and we wish you the best of luck as you push through some of that work, Naledi. Andrew, I want to circle back. We've heard some beautiful things, we've heard some challenges as well, but I want to circle back to one of the things that you mentioned. You brought our attention to this idea that the instability that then festers in different parts of the region is one of those things that manifests itself in demonstrations. Yes, some of them might be peaceful protests, but some of them might be violent protests. Some of them might go all the way up to coups that see some of the military actors that Joseph spoke about coming to the fore. But here's my question, Andrew. There's always going to be a natural tension between people's rising aspirations and the government's ability to meet those aspirations. And that tension, I would imagine, is part of what we want in democratic countries anyway. How, in your view, do countries do a better job of responding to those aspirations and using that tension in a positive and healthy way?

[ANDREW DABALEN] Excellent. And that's precisely, I think, the demand of African citizens, right? So, there are many things, of course, African citizens expect from the government, and you've had some of them from my colleagues, just Joe and Naledi, but let me pick two, and these two came up. There are two things that African citizens actually are expecting and demanding from their governments. The first one is the government to create opportunities for decent jobs. That's the key. The second is for the government to deliver dependable services, right? So, what does it then take to actually create opportunities for decent jobs? I think the fundamental requirement here is for the government to remove the barriers for businesses to enter the market, and grow, and thrive, and create jobs. That's what is needed. And what are these barriers then? I think if you think about what the barriers are, start with the fact that for a lot of countries and for a lot of citizens in Africa, access to energy is missing. When it is available, it is unreliable and expensive. So, that's one. Two, totally bad roads, right? The quality of roads and the cost of actually transporting goods from rural areas to urban areas, from urban areas to urban areas is extremely high. The other one is unpredictable taxes. It's not so much about whether taxes are high or not. It's just the fact that there are a lot of unpredictability of these taxes. And then finally, the fact that you have all these regulations and all these laws that do not create an even playing field for entrepreneurs and for businesses, right? So, you get that, and you have a real chalking off of the opportunities to create jobs and possible pathways for social mobility. The second, in terms of delivery of services, what African citizens are asking their government is to be efficient. So, you want a government that is efficient in terms of how they spend money, right? They want value for their money. They're paying taxes. The government is collecting revenues. What they're expecting from their government is to take those revenues and create situations for students to learn, to show up in school and to learn, for medicines to be in clinics, for water to be available and be clean, and so on and so on and so on, right? So, when governments do these two things, when they meet these two opportunities for a job and deliver dependable services, they create a virtuous cycle, right? And that virtuous cycle involves the citizens being satisfied with the services they get. The government then builds trust with these citizens, and then the citizens have been willing to actually pay taxes, and then the whole cycle begins again, right? So, that is really the chain that is necessary for the governments to meet the aspirations of these citizens.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] And I think as you land on that virtuous cycle, almost what's been heard in the room as well, Andrew, is the vicious cycle that we often see at play, the low trust, which is where we started with Joseph, which then, of course, leads to low tax revenues, low public service delivery, and then couple that with corruption and other mechanisms that leak some of those public funds, we begin to see the picture that we have in front of us. What I'd like to do right now is I want to bring in some of the voices of young people, and then we might circle back to some of the other questions. And maybe let me come to you, Joseph, first. There's a question that's come from Candida in Mozambique. Let's have a listen to what she has to say to us.

[CANDIDA CHELENGO] [Lawyer and Human Resources Consultant, Mozambique] Good afternoon to all participating in the launch of the Regional Economic Report. My name is Candida Chelengo, and I have two questions. First, what evidence is there that transparency improves the delivery of government services? And secondly, what is the right level of regulation to create more jobs?

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] So, what we're hearing Candida say is really, Joseph, shining a lot of focus on the question of what is the evidence that shows that transparency does actually improve service delivery? Candida wants to know, is there a link that when there is transparency, there is public service delivery? What is the work that Afrobarometer has done say in response?

[JOSEPH ASUNKA] Thanks so much, Nozipho. And Candida, that is a great question to ask, transparency and its link with service delivery. So, I'm going to answer your question in two ways. My direct answer is that yes, but there's a but. So, I'll say "Yes, but.” Yes, in the sense that decisions are open and transparent and people know what is happening. First of all, it can help to reduce corruption. That is because transparency can make it harder for public officials to siphon public resources out of the system into private bank accounts. And that is because the operations are open, transparent, and people can see it, and they can protect it. The second is that when the processes about decisions are open to the public, it reduces unethical behavior, whether it is favoritism or choosing to spend public resources in ways that is skewed in favor of one than the other. The third part of it is when there's information about service delivery, and the way it is provided, and how much of it is provided, then citizens can provide feedback in terms of whether or not these services are actually meeting people's desires because it depends on what service you provide and whether or not it is meeting what the aspirations are. And that feedback can then reinforce what's the ability of the resources to actually be used to meet the demands of citizens. So, that's the yes part. So, it can create these opportunities. It creates a kind of foundation for services to be improved. The question is then this has to be paired with something else to make it work for service delivery. And there are three key things that transparency has to link up with to ensure that service delivery is actually improved. The first one is strong institutions. The institutions are there to ensure that public service delivery is actually allocated in an equitable and fair manner that the entire population benefits. The second one is having responsive governments because governments need to be very responsive to the aspirations of their citizens. And the third one, of course, active public engagement because if citizens do not engage with their government, the incentive to be responsive to them can die down. So, my answer to you, Candida, is yes, but. And you have to have the yes side, which is clear, and then we need to combine with these institutions.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] I want to take it, Joseph, and I want to turn it and give it a positive spin and say, "Yes, plus,” rather than, "Yes, but.” The [inaudible] in me wants to look for the positive in it. But I think it's a fantastic equation that you're giving us of all the variables that have actually got to be in play in order for us to really see that link between transparency and public service delivery. Naledi, I want us to go to Ghana and to listen to Tom-Chris Emewulu, who's the founder of Stars from All Nations, and listen to this brilliant question that he brings.

[TOM-CHRIS EMEWULU] [Founder of Stars from All Nations, Ghana] Hello, everyone. My name is Tom-Chris Emewulu, and I'm the president and founder of Stars from All Nations, Ghana's Ed Tech leader, unlocking the potential of Africa's young geniuses. We know the Ministry of Education says that only 10% of Ghanaian university graduates have a chance of getting formal employment within one year of graduating. And so, I'm wondering, I'm asking, what's the right policy and regulation that can help to create decent work for this teaming youth population and actually solve the economic crisis of youth unemployment in the country and beyond?

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Now, what I love about what Tom-Chris says, Naledi, is that he almost takes us back to Andrew's earlier contribution, where Andrew was talking about how do you create an environment that allows business to flourish? And in essence, Tom-Chris is saying to us, "What is the right policy?” What is the right regulation that really gets us on the road to creating decent work for this generation, and in particular, solving for the youth unemployment crisis? So, over and beyond what Andrew has shared about creating a conducive business environment from a policy and regulatory perspective, what else do we need to do?

[NALEDI MADALA] Thank you so much, Nozipho, and thank you so much, Tom. I think it is a very appropriate and timely question, very important question that is keeping a lot of policymakers awake at night. I think the fact that Africa has-- Over 60% of Africa's population is under the age of 25. This solution for youth unemployment in Africa has now become an imperative. It is not just an economic imperative, it is also a demographic and a social one. So, it's about how we act as a continent, how we act urgently, and how we strategically respond to this. I think the question you are asking, Tom, is about the right policy and regulatory approach. I think those two must do three things. One, unlock private sector-led job creation. I think, secondly, enable youth entrepreneurship, and thirdly, align the education and skills with the market needs. First, I think that we need to rethink our labor market regulation, and I'm not saying that we should weaken our worker protection, but I think we need to create that flexible and inclusive framework that will allow the SMEs to thrive. I think when you look around in many African countries, you begin to see rigid labor laws, you begin to see very high compliance costs, you begin to see these complex registration systems, and all of these tend to discourage young people and discourage the formalization of their businesses. So, I think streamlining some of these aspects into those one-stop shops for business registration, simplifying the tax regime, can help to bring more youth into entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship into the formal economy. I think, secondly, we must aggressively, as a continent, invest in youth-centric skills development, and I'm very passionate about this one because we need to invest in sectors that have high job absorption potential. If you look at the agric sector, you look at the creative industries where we have a lot of young people playing in that space, you look at the digital technology, you look at the green job space. I think we need to reach to a point where we have technical and vocational education that is modernized and is also industry-linked to all of these four or five sectors that I've mentioned. I think, for example, a lot of African countries at this point should be having a situation where we have partnerships between the government, between the tech companies, and training institutions so that they are offering certifications in coding, in AI, in digital marketing, in cyber security. And I'm mentioning this because I think, as a continent, we are sort of moving very slow to adapt to where the world is going. We are sort of behind, so I think there is a need to accelerate our pace so that we can enable our young people to be able to compete globally. But I think that this policy work is not happening in a vacuum, and as a policymaker, I can tell you that it is very, very important that there is youth participation when we are making these policies or policy design. We need to bring young people into the room. If we want to create decent work for young people, we must bring them into the room, we must give them a voice, and we must build systems that really recognize their creativity, that speak to their resilience, and that speak to their entrepreneurship drive.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Now, you have touched on a very big point, and I love the fact that it lines beautifully to the next question, which comes from Guinea. And this is the question of inclusive policy making. As you talk about youth participation, making sure that young people actually have a voice in the policy-making process, it invites me then that we open up the space to Oumar Kana Diallo, who is from Guinea. And listen to the question that Oumar has to share with us.

[OUMAR KANA DIALLO] [President for the Guinean Association for Transparency] Hello, I am Oumar Kana Diallo, President of the Guinean Association for Transparency. What mechanisms and tools are needed to strengthen inclusive and participatory governance along the whole chain of local development programs and projects?

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] And for having listened to Oumar and his question around what mechanisms and tools do we need to ensure that governance is inclusive, that it enables participation, and that we're really leveraging the whole chain of local development programs and tools, how do you respond to that? What is the how of opening up the governance process without losing sight of the transparency and the accountability that comes with that?

[ANDREW DABALEN] Excellent question, and one that is at the core of the topic we are discussing today. I will offer perhaps one mechanism, and then two potential tools. So, one mechanism is deliberation. So, I think what is really, really important is for local governments and local communities to get together to be able to, first of all, define what's the project or the program, identify what the objectives of that program and the project are, and then think about, okay, how do we finance it? So, that process of deliberation where the community and their local government representatives get together to really define the boundaries of what is needed and the objectives is very, very important. Once you have defined that, the next important thing is information and transparency. We've heard a lot about transparency and information. So, the idea about information is, okay, who is going to deliver this project? How will it be delivered? By whom? How much will it cost? How will it be financed? So, that information by the community from the local governments is very, very important in order to be able to make sure that, in fact, the governments are being held accountable. And the last thing, which is the tool, is monitoring. So, you don't just stop at, okay, we have defined the objectives, we have the information. No, after that, you really need monitoring because monitoring is important by citizens, which is to try and understand, okay, is the project on target? Is it meeting the milestones? Is it coming under budget? And so on and so on and so on. So, this process of deliberation, information sharing, and then monitoring the outcomes is very, very important in order to be able to actually have these inclusive, transparent, and participatory mechanisms for local government development.

[Nozipho Tshabalala] It's a great framework and quite simple to follow, but I can see quite powerful if it were to be implemented well. And of course, it takes me back to the earlier point I think Naledi was making to say, from a reform perspective, we've seen reform fatigue. And one can see, Andrew, how there can be project fatigue over time if there isn't deliberation and people don't feel that they are part and have ownership of a project, if there's no information and transparency around the spend and the contracts behind certain projects, and certainly if there's no monitoring or reporting on that monitoring, and that citizen fatigue is set to come in. So, unfortunately, we're running out of time. I don't know where it's gone, but I'm going to squeeze in a final round of questions, a final question to each of you before we wrap up. And I think these questions are really aimed at tying it all together and bringing it all together. And maybe, Naledi, I'll start off with you in this instance. And I want to use the common analogy, the chicken or the egg. What comes first? So, if we were to now focus on the priorities, what comes first? Is it the chicken of taxation or is it the egg of quality public services? And I'm raising this in the context of the virtuous cycle that Andrew had shared with us a little bit earlier. So, how do we ensure we have a virtuous cycle rather than a vicious cycle? What do we do first? How do we get the sequencing right?

[NALEDI MADALA] Yeah. A very interesting and tough one, I must say, Nozipho. And it's really a classic development conundrum, right? And in my view, I really think that the answer lies not in tracing one over the other, depending on the environment that you are operating on. If I can give you an example of our situation here in Botswana, I'll tell you that we needed both to hatch at the same time. In Botswana, we have a new government, and it has really inherited a very constrained fiscal environment. And one way, even the most basic government functions were becoming very difficult to sustain. And against this decision or against this situation, there was a decision made to just moderately increase taxes on the higher income earners and on corporates. And I must assure you that this decision was not taken lightly. It was a very necessary, if unpopular, first step to sort of restore functionality. But I must also say to you that we are very clear-eyed about it because taxation without visible improvement in service delivery is just going to deepen public frustration and mistrust. So, I think while in our situation, the chicken may have come first in this case through the tax reform, I think the egg must follow very quickly, and that egg is coming in the form of more reliable or more dignified public service delivery. But I think to truly shift the vicious circle of low trust, as you have said, Nozipho, low revenue collection and low quality services to end up with a more virtuous circle, which is high trust, high compliance, and better public outcomes, I think two things must be prioritized. I think one is transparency and communication. I think it's very important that the citizens must know why taxes are going up, and they must also know how the money is going to be used and the outcomes that they should expect. So, that era of fiscal opacity really must end. More and more information must be out there for the citizens to be able to do the analysis for themselves. I think secondly, even in a tough fiscal space, we must show progress. Whether it's in small movements, they should be visible every day, whether it's in fixing local clinics, improving the infrastructure, or just even digitizing basic services. That improvement needs to show, and that will allow the government to build credibility. But I think ultimately, trust is the cornerstone, and you don't build trust just by asking citizens to wait forever. You need to demonstrate, and you must demonstrate very repeatedly that you are not just rebalancing the books, you are actually rebuilding the nation. But to really answer your question as a parting word-- [Inaudible] Yes, what comes first for me, Nozipho, is leadership. I think leadership that is willing to act and explain, and leadership that will deliver all at once. Yeah.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] I was so excited at that sound bite that you gave us, Naledi, because I think it was so powerful. It's not just about rebalancing the books, it's also about rebuilding the nation, and the chicken and the egg have to hatch at the same time. Or if the chicken comes first or the egg comes first, the other one has to follow very quickly. If you are tweeting or following this on social media, these are the sound bites I would be sharing with everybody else who's not a part of this conversation. That was excellent, Naledi. Thank you. Joseph, so one of the things I think might be hard for all of us to wrap our head around is the fact that we all want a government that works, that delivers on its public services, that uses money well, that has the right policies and the right regulation in place. I think we're all aligned on that. But somehow, we don't always end up doing the same thing. And I suppose the final question to you is, are there big differences between countries in terms of the kind of policies that they institute and that they implement and how those eventually translate into service delivery?

[JOSEPH ASUNKA] Yeah. Thanks so much for asking this question as the last one to me. I do think across the continent, we've been asking citizens, and I'm going to talk from the perspective of citizens. So, first of all, just asking, and I started alluding to this about policy priorities, what is the most important problem that you think your government should address? And I mentioned this that since 2015 coming, there has unemployment consistently ranks top. And Andrew alluded to this because that's one of the key mechanisms creating opportunities for jobs. And I must say here that in creating those opportunities, people want to work and be able to earn their living. Sometimes populist governments think giving free things is the best way to serve your people. I don't think most Africans want free things. They want to be able to have the opportunity to make their own lives better through their own work, their hard work, and not necessarily getting free handouts from government. And so, that has been quite a consistent policy. Unemployment is the biggest thing. But in recent times, we've seen a big shift in country differences. So, across the Sahel, Mali, Burkina Faso, and to some extent Nigeria, you've seen that crime and insecurity, which used not to even come up to citizen policy priorities, has risen to the top. And in Burkina Faso, the last survey round, it was a top issue. And unemployment was second. Same way, when you look at in the post-COVID era, before COVID, we used not to hear about macroeconomic management at all. It used to be number 10 or number 11 or below in that ranking. After COVID-19, macroeconomic management became a big issue in several countries. And we've seen in countries like Ghana, Zambia, South Africa, where it has increased over the last 10 years, about 30 percentage points that has ranked macroeconomic management as a top policy priority for their governments to address. So, we've seen that in several countries, that has become a big issue. That's where the differences are beginning to emerge. And the last point I want to mention is that when it comes to unemployment, and especially for young people, we've seen that increasingly, young people used to lead, but that gap has now become bigger, where more and more young people think that unemployment should be the biggest priority for their government.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Joseph, thank you so very much. And I think one of the often missed things that you've highlighted so powerfully for us again is the importance of the dignity in this conversation is that Africans want the opportunity to work, to earn their own living, and to build their lives, and that it is actually not an ideal situation to be waiting on handouts, and that's not what we as Africans are looking for. And I applaud you for raising that in the way that you did. It would be unfair, Andrew, for us to not also be very honest that as we talk about corruption, as we talk about leaking buckets, that actually, this is also created by us as people. These are not factors that can externalize and say these things are happening to us. These are part of the own goal that we're scoring ourselves. So, as a parting question to you, how do you concretely and definitively attack entrenched power and political interests? Do we have a formula for that?

[ANDREW DABALEN] It's hard, but if I have one thing I would share about that, it's that it's competition, competition both in markets and also in politics. I think that is the operative word. So, let me explain briefly why I think that is important. So, in markets, competition is a way to discipline incumbent firms, right? It is a way to bring a challenge. So young, entrepreneurial, dynamic, innovative firms are the ones that are going to create jobs, that are going to take away market share from these incumbent firms, and discipline them, and eventually displace them, and basically diminish their incumbency power. So, I think the competition in markets is very, very important. That's why earlier questions we talked about, regulation that is not creating an even playing field is really, really important, unfair taxation and so on and so on, right? So, we've mentioned a lot of things that actually create incumbency power, and the way to get rid of it is competition. Competition in politics is also very, very important because it is a way to actually hold incumbents accountable to their promises, to the kinds of things that they actually said they will do, right? And competition is also a way for alternative voices, alternative visions, and the broad coalitions that are really against incumbent power to emerge. And we've seen in very recent periods, in recent months, actually, what competition in politics does, right? So, we've seen it in Botswana, we've seen it in South Africa, we've seen it in Ghana, we've seen it in Senegal, we've seen it across a lot of countries in Africa, right? So, I think competition is really, really, really important in order to be able to actually displace and or diminish entrenched power.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Sure. Competition, discipline, displacement, and I would even go as far as to say discovery because that's how we create the space for new players to enter, whether it's the political arena or the economic marketplace, and that's really powerful. So, I know we've run out of time. I know I'm going to get into trouble for this, but I'm going to ask you for a billboard. And the billboard starts with two words, Africans deserve. And I'm borrowing from Naledi here, who spoke about Africans deserve. And all I'm asking you to do as we close is to complete the sentence. Now, please remember, it is a billboard. Joseph, it's not an Afrobarometer executive summary. To the two economists in the room, it's not an economic note, or, Naledi, briefing to the minister. It is a billboard. So, it's short, it's sharp, it's concise, and it's to the point. And it starts with Africans deserve. So, Joseph, I'm going to go to you first. Africans deserve.

[JOSEPH ASUNKA] Africans deserve dignity and respect when they access public services.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Africans deserve dignity and respect when they access public services. What a beautiful close. Naledi, Africans deserve.

[NALEDI MADALA] They deserve quality services.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Africans deserve quality services. We put the quality in bold, bright, highlighted colors. And then, Andrew, as the final one to take us home today, Africans deserve.

[ANDREW DABALEN] Africans deserve a responsive, capable government.

[NOZIPHO TSHABALALA] Africans deserve a responsive, capable government. All that's left for me to say is to say a massive thank you to my panelists, to Andrew Dabalen, to Joseph Asunka, to Naledi Madala. Thank you so much for being here. A massive thank you to all the young people from across the continent who sent us their questions. They were absolutely brilliant. I wish we had more time to actually share everything that was shared with us. And to all of you who are watching and participating in this conversation, let's amplify some of the soundbites and the highlights that you've heard to everywhere around the world. My name is Nozipho Shabalala. It's been an absolute privilege. Thank you, and goodbye. Bye.