[Hilen Meirovich] Hi, good morning, everybody. Thank you for joining us for this event that we are co-hosting at the MDB Pavilion with MIGA, DFC, and Citi. My name is Hilen Meirovich. I am the head of climate change at IDB Invest. I'm very happy to be moderating this excellent panel with the extraordinary people that are leading the way on climate finance action. This specific panel, we chose it to talk a little bit about partnership because we come from different parts of the puzzle, the finance puzzle, on Finance Day, right? We wanted to know; how can we build partnerships? How can we engage with each other to basically catalyze more impact? And as you've probably seen already the COP28 UAE leaders’ declaration on global climate finance framework that recognizes specifically private sector finance as the largest source of financial flows for climate action. They call in their point number nine that they want to unlock the highway of private finance. But they see that there are three things that are needed. We need more instruments. We need to reduce the cost of capital in the emerging markets, and we need to fix or to derisk currency risk. Those are the three things that they mentioned quickly in this short statement, but what we recognize here is that collaboration among us, among DFIs, can be a powerful tool to resolve these three things of instruments of financial innovation, reduce capital cost and derisk currency risk. And for that, we came together to talk about how each of our institutions are complementing each other, specifically, to respond to sustainable infrastructure investments across the world. With that, let me start by talking to Hiroshi about what do you see how we all complement each other? What are the ways that we can collaborate more or further to unlock this highway of private finance?
[Hiroshi Matano] I would like to thank the panelists, they’re all close friends, actually, and the folks that are in the audience. I'm happy that we have this opportunity to talk about this important theme. I think there's two elements to this. Partnership among the MDBs, DFIs, and also the private sector, I think this partnership is extremely important and we've been able to deliver a lot of things in the past few years. I'm really grateful. MIGA is very small as you know. We only have less than 200 people. The only way we can do this is really through the collaboration. I think that's a unique mandate that MIGA has. We do have a unique product through the guarantee programs that we deploy, but still, we do need to have a wider community supporting us. Obviously, the World Bank and the IFC, our sister organizations, is an important part. But together with the DFIs and the other IDB and others, we just need to have the scale and the impact to really make a difference in the energy transition. Partnership is really the cornerstone for at least our activity. I just want to mention that one thing that the private sector, as you know, we have a new president, Ajay Banga. He came on board about five, six, about months ago, but it's really a big difference in how we talk about this, explain our ambitions. But one of his initiatives is this private sector investment lab. Probably we're having various discussions about this, but I guarantee it's one thing. O2D or Originate to Distribute is another thing. Forex risk, how to manage that, improve that is another. But probably carbon factories will be another one. There's a lot of themes that we're talking with the private sector, but to make this happen again, we can't do it alone. I'm really happy that we've been able to collaborate with all our friends on the panel, but to simply say, we just need to do more, I guess.
[Hilen Meirovich] Thank you. James, we've tested quite different instruments. We have eighty years of testing using vendor finance to be able to increase climate action. Can you share with us examples of what we have done and where do we want to go?
[James Scriven] Sure. Hopefully, you hear me well. It's a bit strange. I feel like Taylor Swift over here with us. I don't sing like that. But anyway, sorry about that. Blended Finance. First, I want to say, Hilen, it's a great pleasure to be here surrounded by close partners and friends. I think it's extremely important and we can go into the complementarities, but it's great to be among friends. Blended Finance, we understand that some of the markets in which we operate require some form of concessionality. Concessionality takes different forms, but we have had the benefit of working with, for example, the Canadian government, the UK government, the Finnish government also, with a number of different ways in how to apply some form of concessionality, and that concessionality can take the form of technology risk in some cases. When we're moving into climate space, we're looking at green, hydro, we're looking at the early incarnations of solar plants and wind farms. There's a lot of technology risk that has to be taken, and we share that risk with other partners. Sometimes we're talking about credit risk. If you look at the cases of a lot of investments that we're doing in places like Haiti, there's a lot of credit risk involved in small solar plants that we have in the north of Haiti. There's where we partner with other forms of concessionality. I would say the complementarity of that concessionality with the long-term investments of institutions like the MDBs that we're sitting over here at the table together with our partners and friends of Citibank is a way in which we convince. A good example of this is Uruguay. Uruguay, the early incarnations of solar plants and wind farms were extremely risky for the markets. We used in the first couple of cases, we did use concessionality. But after that, we realized that the perception of risk was very different than the reality of risk. Then we stopped using concessionality. And the latest we have is that the private sector went in directly, even without us. Those are the examples of what you're trying to do with concession, blended finance to bridge a market failure. Sometimes it's a perceived failure, sometimes a real failure. But that's how you operate and bridge that gap. And the idea of concessionally is a one-time thing to address that. Hopefully, that goes away for the private market and real interest rates comes in.
[Hilen Meirovich] Thank you, James. And one of the things that we've discussed even in the last week is how do we find projects, how do we find those climate investments? In that sense, Scott, I wanted to ask you, how are you prioritizing climate investments across DFC? Because one thing is we can have an array of projects, but we also need to focalize and prioritize climate action. So how do we do that?
[Scott Nathan] Thanks for the question, and especially thanks for moderating and having us all here. Like everyone else, it's great to be up here with friends and partners. Maybe we'll get into it, but I agree, James, there are a lot of things we could say about how working together multiplies the impact that we're able to have, whether it's with an important counterparty like Citi, working with MIGA, or recently the strong partnership we've developed with IDB Invest. All of it ends up being directed toward looking for transactions. The only way that the Development Finance Corporation makes a difference is through transactions, finding good deal flow, getting those projects across the finish line and disbursing funds to our ultimate partners. We were created by the US Congress to mobilize capital to the private sector, to be a modernized development finance institution for the United States. To answer your question about how climate fits into those priorities, one of the ideas behind the creation of DFC was to broaden our tool set. Today, James and I, on behalf of our institution, signed agreements where each of our institutions are investing 15 million dollars of equity in a fantastic electric bike company operating throughout South America called Tembici. Four years ago, before DFC existed and our predecessor was around, we would not have been able to do that. We didn't have the ability to make equity investments. That was key not only for making impact, but for being a partner. Our predecessor agency, because of some of the restrictions it was under, had trouble partnering with like-minded development finance institutions, MDBs, and others. But we're prioritizing climate across our tool set. Equity, political risk insurance, loans, loan guarantees, technical assistance, and across all the regions where we operate, all the economic sectors. Last year we did 3.7 billion dollars of transactions, about 60 different deals that were climate related. That's a huge increase over just two years ago, where we did less than 500 million. That really reflects President Biden and the United States government's efforts and emphasis on making sure that we're providing climate finance in the developing world in all different kinds of ways. Innovative ways like tech for nature swaps, equity into interesting entrepreneurial ideas, large scale loans for the deployment of renewables, et cetera, et cetera.
[Hilen Meirovich] It's interesting. I think part of the conversation right now is we need different instruments, equity, blended finance or other guarantees, but we also need a strategy. We need a clear focus strategy to increase the type of climate finance that we can unlock for the future. But we also need the private sector. And so, Julie, I wanted to ask you, having the DFIs here, what would you ask us to do? Where do you see us moving forward with all the changes that we have made in the last few years?
[Julie Monaco] I'd like to join my friends in saying that this has been a long-term partnership with all of us. I don't think it's more… it's not what I need from the DFIs, it's what we need to do together, because we've been partnering for a long time. I think what's been very evident is that scaling the financing that's going to be needed will not be met by public funding, and it's going to have to be how do we scale the innovation that we have done? I'm looking across this panel, and we've been partners for many, many decades before any of us were in these roles. We do innovative things together. A lot of the things that Scott just mentioned are transactions that we worked on together to innovate. I think that it really is around how we're going to mobilize that private capital at a scale. For us, what we think the changes that are going to need to be made is that we're going to have to come up with new... we're going to need to change the existing products, the existing financial tools and products, and innovate in a way that's going to allow us to bring them to the capital markets. The only place that has enough money to close these gaps that are in trillions of dollars is the capital markets. We have to collectively roll up our sleeves and be at a table and say, “For everything that we structure, the end goal has to be how fast can we recycle that capital into the capital markets?” This year there's been a lot of discussions about MDB reform. We've been part of that dialog, and we've certainly given our recommendations on the things that DFIs and MDBs can be doing differently, but that's going to be a journey. But we do think that there are immediate things we can be focusing on together that don't require the MDBs to ask for more capital, and are not going to put the AAA rating at risk. Those are the things that we... The immediate things we can do, I'll give one specific example. As everyone knows, commercial banks being regulated the way we are, it is very difficult for us to take along tenors. We can't. The interpretation of Basel III, it's very punitive to our capital structure, so for renewable projects that are 20 to 25 years, it's just impossible for us to go into those transactions. We see it as our role as a bank to be in those transactions and to help facilitate getting those transactions structured. But we think that there's ways that we could be working together, and IDB Invest has actually, I think, been an innovator in this, in that we need to do more mini-perms, so that commercial banks can come in with the MDBs and the official money, and we put in pricing into those mini-perms that when you're past the construction phase, the pricing starts getting more and more expensive, and it actually forces you into a refinancing. And we have to structure it from the beginning, knowing that we want to take it to the capital markets. There's also been a lot of discussion around securitization and recycling capital. An example I would use is I was on a panel yesterday for Indonesia for PLN. When you look at Indonesia and the 400 projects they've laid out in their CIPP, you're talking about 156 billion dollars between now and 2040. You've got JETP, which is about 21 billion of commitment. How many times do we have to recycle that 20 billion to get to the 145? You can do the math, but we have to do that with some level of acceleration. It's only going to be done by recycling this into the capital markets. Securitization is a place that we... It's not even so much as what you need to do, we can bring to the table if we are knowledgeable on how to take any asset and securitize it. But it requires in the analysis we've been doing of MDBs current loans, as well as government loans for infrastructure, they were never designed upfront to securitize them. We need to go back to the drawing table together and say, “How do we innovate to be able to securitize?” Then finally, this is something we need from our regulators desperately. We need a single interpretation of Basel III that is consistent, because today there are different interpretations across different jurisdictions, and at Citi we see that in spades because we're operating in every jurisdiction. There are different interpretations of what capital relief we get from using MDB risk defeasance tools. The US banks are particularly penalized for that because of US interpretation of Basel III. We would really love to see the G7, the countries come together and have one interpretation of the capital relief commercial banks could get from using these defeasance tools so that we could do more.
[Hilen Meirovich] Thank you, Julie. I think that it's important that we partner with private sector to structure innovative financial instruments, but I definitely see that there is a role that DFIs can play in bringing lessons learned from the ground up of what's working, what's not working, that can also share with the private sector to be able to do that feedback loop.
[Julie Monaco] [unintelligible] is the data, right? The World Bank announced that in the second quarter we're going to have the GEMs database, but having a robust global database around the performances of these projects would be vital for the commercial banks, because we now have someone from the World Bank working for us, Stephanie von Friedeburg, and the minute she came in and started looking at our risk model, she said, “Wow, we're making a lot of really overly conservative assumptions based on how I know these things perform.” Us having that data so we could update our risk models would also increase our risk appetite. That's something that I know the industry is working on, but we got to push forward with that.
[Hilen Meirovich] What OTHER lessons can you take from the experience that we've had with projects or that you had in DFC with projects that can enhance this collaboration?
[Scott Nathan] One of the lessons that for sure we've taken is that we need a stable, enabling environment of laws and regulations in order to evaluate these projects. We just recently did a loan for a solar deal in Ecuador, a 200-megawatt on-grid, first on grid solar deal in Ecuador end up producing, we think, the cheapest electricity in the country. But that was really only possible with really strong cooperation with the government and obligation of new regulations that made that possible. It's that enabling environment that's key. Other lessons are that we need to constantly be pushing on innovation. Our work with philanthropic partners, with commercial advisors and banks and other partners like IDB and some of the Debt for Nature swaps we've been doing have meant that I think we're really creating a whole new market in that. It addresses the enormous over indebtedness problem that many of the countries where we operate face. But it's a use of our tool in a new and novel way, our political risk insurance way, the political risk insurance tool, to make sure that we can complete these transactions. We want to see this market grow. It's important to have additional actors in it, and it's important to partner as much as possible.
[Hilen Meirovich] James, can you bring this to the region? What are the challenges that you see in the region and how can we close the infrastructure gap?
[James Scriven] So, a statistic that is important you need an ongoing at least 3% investment in physical infrastructure and digital infrastructure to be able to close the gap. Not by chance, we call ourselves an infrastructure bank. Most of our business, 70% of our activity is in the physical and digital infrastructure space. That was the reason for the partnership that we've signed together, the MOU that we signed together is to move into that space. I would say I would agree with Scott. The neighboring environment is paramount to this. And that's why the multilateral system, having public sector arms and private sector arms working together as a group, even though legally we’re different entities, is the biggest competitor advantage that we have as a group. In our case, we've got single country managers in all the countries. The conversation that is happening with the public sector or with the private sector is led by one person that represents both entities. That's a unique comparative advantage because that combination of public and private is what makes the key. There's no difficult development solution that is purely public or purely private. It's when that combination of those things come together. I would say that's the biggest impediment. No surprise if you see the more stable countries in our region in terms of a rule of law, in terms of institutionality, are the countries that receive the highest level foreign direct investment. It’s our job as multilateral system is to equip countries with enabling environments and not the last leader, being the first ones to come in. And when those markets are stabilized, being law stabilized or pricing or currency stabilized is when we see a flow of investments coming in.
[Hilen Meirovich] Hiroshi, can you give us examples also from experiences?
[Hiroshi Matano] Sure. Just to build upon the current discussion, what we're talking within MIGA is really when you look at our mandate, and we have various tools to deploy to address those mandates, actually, we're talking about two types of worlds. One is in the middle-income countries. This is more established, rural laws there, the fire sector is flourishing. These kinds of economies, we have to help them really for the decarbonization, for the net zero, and pushing that. That's one way, one area that I think we can use our [unintelligible] guarantee programs and all that. There's another world in the low-income countries where there's, to be frank, more challenges in the rural law and all the private sector environment enabling elements. It's just not there. The interaction with them probably is different from the middle-income countries. When we talk about all these projects or initiatives that we're talking about, probably we need to keep in mind of these different current worlds that we're operating. What at the World Bank we're trying to do is really to create a private sector enabling environment. Depending on the situation we give the bank, as a policy bank, we'll try to give the appropriate incentives to make it a better place where the private sector can be active, where there is a certain level of private sector and enabled situation, then we want to push for the decarbonization. That's really the master view that we're trying to do at MIGA, and probably it is throughout the World Bank Group. In that sense, the partnership that we have with IDB Invest, we did a certain project in Colombia. That's a great example. I think that we want to do more poor infrastructure developments. But the stuff we're doing in Ukraine with DFC is a little bit different. It's really providing the liquidity support that they really need at this point. How can we have an intelligent conversation among ourselves in deploying our capital and tools? It's really the important part of that I think we need to have a conversation. Just to mention, always the private sector needs to come in. We can't do it alone. Citi and their colleagues will be an important part of this story.
[Hilen Meirovich] One question that I wanted to ask you, Julie, is we've been talking about sustainable infrastructure, and we fall into renewable energy, right? What do you see next? Or how do you see other sectors like electromobility? Do we have the same challenges? Can we collaborate and use the type of instruments that you were talking about just now?
[Julie Monaco] Yes, the tools are the same, and the tools can be used for climate finance, but they're also the same tools that we've always needed to scale the Sustainable Development Goals across the board. I think the tools are generic and can be applied to all different industries. In terms of the role that Citi needs to play in this, and as James was talking about having one single person that can oversee both the private sector and the public sector in the country and the power that that brings, I've seen that at Citi because I run public sector, so my team of bankers works with the public sector. But the reality is that everything we need to achieve is a public-private partnership. My team now works very closely with all the other industry groups in the private sector, and we have chief country officers in 95 countries who have to oversee all of it. We have a unique perspective, as do our partners of seeing all the private sector companies that are operating on the ground, as well as working with the governments, working with the local development banks, the regional MDBs as well as the philanthropic and the NGOs, and we see it all having to come together. Citi has made this trillion-dollar commitment that will mobilize a trillion dollars’ worth of capital between 2020 and 2030 for sustainable development, of which 500 billion is climate and the other 500 billion is social. We've done about 387 billion so far. We see the role that how we have to evolve is we have to play a more active role as an innovator. That is why within my team, within our public sector team, 10 years ago, we created a dedicated group that focuses on all of the NGOs, the development finance organizations, as a subset climate client segment within public sector. But then a year ago, when I hired Stephanie von Friedeburg, it was now let's build out an entire function whose only job is to figure out how to better partner with DFIs for all of our clients at Citi, and how to pull together all those pieces. We’re going to continue to evolve there because we have to continue to innovate. I just want to highlight one innovation that we think is really important. We have to figure out how to scale the use of voluntary carbon credits to get more financing done. With the World Bank, Citi last year served as a lead manager on a $50 million outcome emissions linked bond, and investors supported the upfront financing required to manufacture and distribute these water purification systems throughout Vietnam. They were burning coal and wood to purify their water across their entire school system. It impacted like 2 million school children. By being able to do that transaction, we basically embedded in the transaction a semi-annual coupon that was linked to the issuance of verified carbon credits. The investors that came into that were family offices and impact investors, very different investors than normally come in when the World Bank issues a bond. Because it was World Bank guaranteed, they were guaranteed their principal. But the coupon payments were tied to the project actually happening and the carbon credits. Our carbon credit trading desk, which is based in London, was able to structure the pricing for those carbon credits and embed it and monetize. Now, it was a small transaction, but that's a perfect example of what we all do together today, but we'll have to continue to do together, is you have to innovate it at small scale. We see this as a proof of case that this can work, and that we need to get more and more. I know that the World Bank has introduced the Carbon Credit roadmap. We're excited to see that, because we do think that voluntary carbon credits and monetizing them upfront to get these projects funded is going to be a key component to blended finance.
[Hilen Meirovich] From the conversation here, it sounds like we have good examples, things that have worked before, but we still are at the beginning of these billions to trillions. How are we going to get to the trillions? We have models. We have the will to collaborate. We have our strategies. It seems that in the process of changing, we need to hire people and risk [unintelligible] teams inside to be able to partner. But maybe, James, can you tell us a little bit about how can we get from the billions to the trillions?
[James Scriven] I remember the first time I met our new President, Ilan Goldfajn, and he did refer to, and I'm going to use his phrase, “The billions will happen through the multilateral system. The trillions will only happen through the private sector.” I do think that there's a lot of collaboration over here. But I do think that we require, as at least I'm going to talk about my institution, an evolution of how multilateral systems work. Traditionally, when we were created, we were in a model of investing our own money. There was nobody else looking at emerging markets. The development goals were at that time called Millennium Development Goals. They were not as very precise and targeted as the UN Sustainable Development Goals. We were the only ones operating in this space and our business was to just invest. During the last 10 years, I would say, the emergence of investors looking for more investments beyond OECD countries, but in particularly the emergence of impact investors that are in the trillions of dollars. The last count I saw is 103 trillion dollars of impact investors. The only way in which we'll make a dent in our lifetime in the SDG space is by finding models to crowd in these 100 trillion dollars. If we don't move them into emerging markets, they'll find space in the OECD countries. What we need to do as development institutions is make the decision of them just moving into the US and Europe to make it difficult by leveling the playing field of the emerging markets. What we do as a development organization or group is actually mitigate the risks that they're seeing. In many cases, the risk is of sovereign risk grading, of changes of laws or expropriation. That's when institutions like MIGA have an enormous place to play. In other cases, there are other forms of risk. But a colleague of mine once said, if it's not the multilaterals, who will it be? And if it's not now, when can it be? I do think the cry for MDB reforms, and I'm looking at Hans that had a big role to play in this, is now. That's why our obsession in what we call an evolution of the IDB Invest is to move away from being an investor to being a catalyzer. This concept of originate to share is no longer a concept of a buy and hold model for us because anything that we keep in our balance sheet is something that could be financed by somebody else, by us taking more risk. I think the biggest impediment to development finance through the MDB role is many people talk about leverage. For me, it's not leverage. For me, it's our risk appetite framework that is outdated and probably obsolete at this point in time. I think that's the evolution. I've been coined as troublemaker in this COP. For me, the word obsolete comes to mind because I think we need to evolve. Because if not, all the impact investors in the world are not going to be looking at us. They're going to be going, dismediating us to philanthropical space and going directly. I do think that evolution of the MDB world is much needed at this point in time.
[Hilen Meirovich] Let me take the chance that we have Hiroshi here and maybe react to that change.
[Hiroshi Matano] No, just completely echo to what James meant. I think it's time that the MDBs have to reform. That's what I’ll say. I had a nice discussion with some of our private sector partners yesterday, but it's an amazing transformation over there since Paris that the sustainability has become mainstream for the private sector. Now because of that, we need to go one step beyond them, I guess. There's an obligation that we need that uniquely that the MDBs or the DFIs can do is really set the standards. We talked about the private sector enabling aspect, but those are the challenging stuff that the MDBs uniquely can do. We need to bring together, use that knowledge. It's the unique knowledge that we want to share across the system so that we can move together. The past few years, Citi is a great example, but awareness about these sustainability issues became mainstream. Let's take advantage of that. There is a difference between the public and private, but I do think that for the cause that we need to address is so huge that we are one, forced to do this, but this partnership that we want to create will make it really more effective, in my view. I just want to echo what James mentioned, and that's the way my boss, Ajay Banga, is thinking.
[Hilen Meirovich] Scott, to the point that we're talking about sustainability mainstreamed, many times it has to do with understanding the KPI, understanding that we are reducing emissions, and it's clear. But you mentioned that for nature, and that's a whole different story. We're learning. We've worked together in Ecuador. I know we're trying to promote that kind of instrument. But what are the challenges that you see in those types of new frontiers?
[Scott Nathan] First, I just want to react to what James said and Hiroshi. I completely agree that mobilizing private capital is the ultimate objective. But until we're there, we still need to provide capital. That’s really where our institution, the United States, DFC, comes in. I think that's a little bit at the origin of our partnership, that the America's Partnership Platform that IDB Invest and DFC have signed up in the last month, the idea behind it is to share deal flow. IDB Invest is in a position by being on the ground to generate more deal flow and sustainable infrastructure, digital and otherwise. We're in a fortunate position because of the structure of our funding to have capital. We're very interested in collaborating together. This is a perfect example where we can provide capital and through that, I think ultimately mobilize more capital. That risk mitigation tools we have, political risk insurance like what MIGA has, DFC has been in… the United States, has been in that business since the Marshall Plan. That's incredibly important. But the combination of capital provision and risk mitigation, I think, together work incredibly powerfully. And innovation has got to be part of that. Whether it's debt for nature swaps or debt for some other impact [unintelligible]. Women's economic empowerment, healthcare outcomes, water, thinking about it in that way. Then way beyond that in terms of making sure that our tools are being used as flexibly as possible to bring in more private capital in all sorts of different ways, either by demonstrating through our actions, the investability of markets, or by helping shift the risk.
[Hilen Meirovich] Julie, what's your reaction to when you see all the changes that are happening in the MDB world?
[Julie Monaco] It's encouraging. Because I thought that [unintelligible] that we have to get this done to scale. I would say that eight years ago, I remember around the time when the World Bank was launching the Global Infrastructure Facility, we did a survey of our institutional investors around the world to talk about exactly what Scott was talking about in terms of how do you get more of this into the emerging markets, private capital? They basically said, we're not going to take foreign exchange risk, and we're not going to take construction risk. You go figure that out and create and asset plan that we can come into, and we'll come into it. We know that that's the pot of the trillion dollars sitting there. It's our collective responsibility. I think the commercial banks have a really important role to play here together with our partners and the DFIs to figure out how to work together to say, what are our strengths and our constraints? What are your strengths and constraints? And come together and do this innovation to unlock that institutional capital. I think we're taking the right steps. If we start thinking of the risk data as a public good, so that commercial banks can get a better insight into all the historical data that sit within the DFIs, that will be critical if we get better regulatory, consistent regulatory treatment on the defeasance tools. We continue to innovate on how we're going to use not only the carbon credits, which I talked about, the debt for nature, like Scott said, it can be debt for development. Right now, the debt for nature, it's an NGO that's actually the administrator on the ground. But why can't that be the DFI who's administering projects for development on the ground? That's complex because you're talking about restructuring a country's debt while you're trying to get development projects done. Those are two things that are both complicated, and we're trying to now combine those complications into one transaction, but it's going to require all of us to think differently. But I think what I would leave people with is that there are so many projects we need to get done, and it is so big that it's a mindset change. In the past, the DFIs originated to hold. They invested and stayed in it for the entire loan. There's an income associated with those loans that you don't want to lose. But the reality is that you can keep cycling through. There's going to be 100 projects to replace it. This originate to distribute and really achieving that is what's going to unlock the institutional capital. I think we collectively can make that happen, but it's going to require both organizations to change. We need more technical expertise in all of our organizations to be working together much more closely than we've had to, because what we're trying to achieve is more complicated. We all stayed in our swim lanes before. We're now going to have to roll up our sleeves and spend more time at a technical level together to figure out how we're going to do this.
[Hilen Meirovich] Thank you, Julie. I think we are running out of time, but I just wanted to conclude saying that I had a hidden agenda here. My hidden agenda was to be positive. Many times we come to COP and we say things are not moving, things are not progressing. But having these panels, I hope it inspires people to do more things, to see that things are happening, that things are moving, that we're learning from each other, that we are partnering with each other. And hopefully, this will unlock the avenue or the highway of private capital in the future. But I just wanted to leave in a very positive note that yes, change is happening. Thank you so much for coming.