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This event took place on February 10, 2022

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00:00 [Hana Brixi] I am Hana Brixi, Global Director for Gender
00:03 at the World Bank, and today we will have a fascinating discussion of the new evidence
00:10 and experience about female entrepreneurs who cross over to male-dominated sectors.
00:17 The new analysis that will be presented and discussed was produced by the network of the
00:24 World Bank Group's Regional Gender Innovation Labs with the support of the Umbrella Fund
00:29 for Gender Equality.
00:31 So why is this new analysis important?
00:34 Well, we know that sectoral choice matters for firm performance.
00:40 But exactly, why and how occupational segregation matters for women entrepreneurs?
00:47 And why and how does it matter for their profitability and growth?
00:52 These are questions that have not been addressed adequately so far.
00:57 The new publication brings rich global synthesis of research on occupational segregation of
01:04 female entrepreneurs.
01:06 It looks at the most salient factors associated with being a female entrepreneur who crosses
01:13 over to a male-dominated sector.
01:17 And the report takes us to 10 countries in three regions and it shares insights from
01:23 a global survey of entrepreneurs.
01:26 So with us here today, a distinguished group of speakers will discuss what policies and
01:35 programs can support women entrepreneurs to cross over to and, ultimately, succeed in
01:44 typically more profitable male-dominated sectors.
01:48 Speakers, whom I will introduce in a moment, will also address your questions, questions
01:56 from the audience that we are collecting via the chat function.
02:00 We will start now opening remarks by Makhtar Diop, Managing Director and Executive President
02:09 of the International Finance Corporation at the World Bank Group.
02:13 Makhtar, thank you for joining us, and the floor is yours.
02:16 [Makhtar Diop] Hi, good morning, everybody.
02:18 And good morning, Hana.
02:20 Good morning, Mamta.
02:21 Good morning, Markus, our colleagues of the World Bank that have been working on this
02:25 topic.
02:26 It's a huge pleasure to be here today with you because as many of you know, this an area
02:31 which is very dear to my heart, but let me just say a few word of introduction to kick
02:37 off the conversation that I know will be very rich with all of them, it's a very great panel
02:42 that we have put together.
02:45 Let's start by just an image, which is to picture an owner of a construction firm and
02:55 a company, an IT company, an automotive repair shop, and to picture which gender will be
03:00 leading that company.
03:02 If you see a man, is not surprising because these are sectors, which are highly dominated
03:08 by men.
03:09 They're dominated by men, they are the owners, and these companies tend to be very profitable,
03:19 much more profitable than sector like trade or retails where female-owned firms tend to
03:26 concentrate.
03:27 This is an example of the global profit arch here and I love this concept, which is a concentration
03:32 of women in less profitable sectors and less profitable economic activities within sectors
03:38 when they are compared to men.
03:40 And this profit, actually, is doing more than just holding women back financially; it's
03:45 a limiting global economic potential on a massive scale.
03:50 We know, looking at the literature and economic research, that over the last 50 years, the
03:56 increased participation of human and other marginalized group in high-scale profession
04:02 has contributed significantly to a GDP growth.
04:07 Some estimate that in the U.S., he has contributed to 40% of GDP growth per capital.
04:12 Economist, also researcher, first estimate that eliminating with the occupational gap
04:21 in gender could also have a significant impact on GDP.
04:24 Some are estimated at 10%, which is an order of magnitude of this impact.
04:32 This number can't be ignored, they are significant.
04:35 And every day that an entrepreneur faces limited job choices based on their gender is a day
04:41 that we all lose because GDP growth is lower.
04:44 And we have much less contribution to wealth in countries and to reducing inequity.
04:50 Fortunately, there are actionable steps that we can take to help close this gap and ensure
04:58 more equitable access to opportunity and that's where we are in today to discuss.
05:03 This report is, for me, an essential report and a great contribution in the work that
05:11 the Bank is doing, but also a great contribution in the discussion on gender in emerging economy,
05:19 specifically.
05:20 The new World Bank Report breaking barriers, female entrepreneur will cross over to male-dominated
05:26 sector, examine what went right for women who did make the leap into profession typically
05:33 dominated by men.
05:34 The research discovered 10 countries and three regions, paints a clear picture.
05:40 Women who operate business in male-dominated sector outperform women operating in female-dominating
05:45 sectors.
05:46 For example, in Uganda, that was the first time, really, I come across that evidence,
05:53 women in male-dominated sector earn as much as men in their sector and 100% more than
06:01 women in female-concentrated sector.
06:05 In Lao, women in male-dominated sector earn about 80% more than women in female-concentrated
06:12 sectors.
06:13 So all these numbers are important, but the main lesson to take from that is that helping
06:22 women break into this traditional male-dominated field could help close persistent economic
06:29 gender gap.
06:30 At IFC, which is a private sector branch of the World Bank Group, we work with client
06:35 in getting more women in the construction industry.
06:38 This is the case in Papua New Guinea and in India.
06:40 We are addressing, also, this gap in an even more urgent manner in the wake of the COVID-19
06:47 crisis, which dealt a major blow to the gender equity progress made around the world in recent
06:53 years.
06:54 The pandemic forced countless women out of the work market and into unpaid care work.
07:01 And supporting women-owned businesses and female entrepreneur will be essential to ensuring
07:07 an equitable, sustainable, and resilient recovery.
07:11 So building back better should be centered on those questions, which are reducing inequity,
07:20 but also allowing us to reduce that income gap between women and men.
07:29 Implementing programs and policies that empower women to enter more profitable sectors, maximize
07:36 their opportunities, should be an important part of this effort and the breaking barrier
07:42 report give us a very good insight.
07:44 I just wanted to end off by saying that I was, last week, in East Africa.
07:50 I visited Kenya and I visited Tanzania.
07:54 And the demand for this is very important.
07:57 I met with the head of state of Tanzania, the president was a woman, and she asked IFC
08:05 to make the gender agenda the main entry point of our intervention in Tanzania.
08:13 So we will be working very much with companies.
08:15 We are working with banks to be able to have particular targeted credit for women, particularly
08:22 SMEs.
08:23 And the finding around this question for us would be very important because we will try
08:28 to translate it in our dialogue with companies that we are supporting and ensuring that we
08:35 take into account this breaking barrier agenda in the support that we are bringing to women-led
08:45 companies.
08:46 So you will see more of us, more of IFC talking about this agenda because as we are entering
08:56 more and more centrally in our work, in emerging economies in a post-COVID-19 era, we have
09:05 an opportunity here to do great things.
09:08 So we have today a very distinguished, good group of panelists and they're going to dive
09:14 in this specific policy recommendation in just a minute.
09:18 I just want to end off by saying that I would like a big thanks to Markus Goldstein.
09:23 He was a colleague I worked with very closely when I was VP for Africa for the World Bank
09:29 and we had the privilege of launching the first gender innovation lab.
09:33 It was a very, very important part of our work.
09:36 I would like, also, to thank my VP, Mamta Murthi, who was also part of the Africa team
09:44 that was supporting the work that was done, which was replicated in the rest of the institution
09:51 and I'm very glad that now, is becoming very much a centerpiece of the work that the gender
09:59 group is doing across the World Bank Group.
10:03 Now, I'm sure that you are eager to listening to the specialists, those who have been working
10:11 on this.
10:12 I hope that this report will bring us some more insight that will help us in our work
10:19 at IFC with companies, SMEs, to be able to break this barrier.
10:24 So I handing it to you, Hana, and I wish to all of you a very, very successful discussion
10:31 and session.
10:32 Thank you.
10:34 [Hana Brixi] Makhtar, thank you so much for your opening
10:37 remarks and for your vivid illustration of the challenge of occupational segregation,
10:44 and also the illustration how IFC is involved in addressing the challenge and in improving
10:49 and supporting gender equality in the private sector.
10:53 Let me now invite my colleague, Markus Goldstein, who is the Head of the World Bank's Africa
10:59 Gender Innovation Lab and the lead author of the new report.
11:04 Markus, please, we are all eager to hear your insights from the report and the key findings
11:11 and recommendations of the report.
11:13 So the floor is yours.
11:15 [Markus Goldstein] Thanks, Hana.
11:19 Can you see my slides okay?
11:24 [Hana Brixi] Yes, we can.
11:27 [Markus Goldstein] Great.
11:28 What I'm going to do is take you through a quick tour of the report and then, later,
11:33 we're going to have lots of discussion in a super awesome panel.
11:40 This report is a big team effort and we'll have credits at the end.
11:49 Let's go to Uganda, and Makhtar had us do this thought exercise.
11:54 When we think of a female entrepreneur [inaudible], I'm more likely to think of these women who
12:02 are hairdressers.
12:04 That's a female-concentrated sector.
12:06 I'm less likely to think about Betty.
12:10 Betty is a metalworker and that is a male-dominated sector in Kampala, and in many countries in
12:17 the world.
12:19 This report asked the question, "What can we learn from women like Betty, not to make
12:24 women more like men, but to level the playing field so that opportunities are closer to
12:31 equal?"
12:33 What's new about this report?
12:35 Super exciting data.
12:37 We have survey data from 10 countries in Sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and Southeast Asia.
12:44 And this is complemented with global data from the Future of Business survey, which
12:50 is implemented through a social media platform that covers 97 countries.
12:55 Generally, the survey data is looking at micro entrepreneurs.
12:59 This Future of Business survey also gives us some insight into larger businesses, as
13:06 well.
13:07 When we're talking about these sectors, what are we talking about?
13:13 Male-dominated sectors are things like automobile, maintenance, and sales.
13:18 Here, you can see in all three regions that we're looking at the data for, it's male-dominated.
13:23 Female-dominated sectors, let's go back to Kampala; we have our hairdressers in all three
13:30 regions.
13:32 We define it for the purposes of the analysis here, as 70 to 75% of firms are owned by men:
13:39 that makes a male-dominated sector.
13:41 Now, I think it is important to keep in mind that throughout the world, there is diversity
13:46 in what these sectors are, as well.
13:50 So wood manufacturing and repair, for example, in Latin America and Sub-Saharan Africa is
13:56 male-dominated, but it's female-concentrated in East Asia.
14:00 Trade of textile and footwear, diverse across regions, but also within regions.
14:05 In East Asia, some countries, that's male-dominated; in some, it's female-concentrated.
14:13 Now, this sectoral contribution, I think one important thing to keep in mind is when we
14:18 look at this graph is that women are concentrated.
14:22 Women are found in a smaller number of sectors.
14:25 Their sectors, these female-concentrated sectors, they're crowded.
14:30 And that means that profits are going to be lower, competition is going to be more intense.
14:34 They also are characterized by more informality.
14:36 And sometimes, they're characterized by lower potential for growth.
14:40 Men, on the other hand, are in a larger number of sectors and so, maybe competition is less,
14:47 there's more opportunity for profits.
14:51 What underpins this is…
14:52 Or sort of, you can think of two main kinds of factors.
14:56 First is social rules.
14:57 So let me give you an example.
15:00 My children attended the local public elementary school and there were, out of 50 teachers,
15:06 there were two men.
15:09 What happens to my children when they leave elementary school?
15:12 They think of elementary school teachers as women.
15:18 And this kind of… it wasn't something someone said to them or it's this role modeling, these
15:25 social roles that evolve over time.
15:27 When I went to school, it was the same thing.
15:29 And so they persist over time.
15:32 These ideas, these norms of what's appropriate for, quote, "appropriate" for women, those
15:40 persist.
15:42 The other side of things to think about are constraints in the market.
15:46 Women are less likely to have collateral.
15:48 They're less likely to own property in almost every country in the world.
15:54 They're going to have more trouble getting finance.
15:56 There are these constraints in the market, as well as these social roles, that underpin
16:01 this persistence over time.
16:05 This matters, as Makhtar told us, and in many countries, this is a major contributor to
16:15 the earnings gaps between male and female entrepreneurs.
16:18 Let's look at the numbers.
16:19 If we look at this “profitarchy”, as Makhtar indicated, in Uganda, Betty, our metal worker,
16:31 women like her, on average, are making 140% more, more than double, the hairdressers that
16:42 we saw.
16:43 Right?
16:44 Hugely big profit differentiation.
16:46 Now, one thing to keep in mind is what we're talking about today is horizontal segregation.
16:51 Think of glass walls, not the glass ceiling.
16:55 But we also in this world have vertical segregation, the glass ceiling we've heard a lot about.
17:02 Mexico gives us a good example.
17:04 The most profitable firms in our data from Mexico are males in male-dominated sectors.
17:11 The second most profitable are males in female-concentrated sectors.
17:19 What you're seeing here is that the number three, is females in male-dominated sectors.
17:26 So even when women break in, in the case of Mexico, when they break into male-dominated
17:31 sectors, they're not making the same.
17:35 Today, we're talking about this transition across sectors, but you have to keep in mind
17:43 that even once that's achieved, we're going to have issues, and that's for another time,
17:50 of advancement within the sector.
17:52 We often find, for example, that women are concentrated in the lower value part of different
17:58 sectors.
18:00 But coming back to this crossing over and this occupational segregation, I want to reiterate
18:08 a point that Makhtar made is that this, basically, is preventing people from getting to the jobs
18:16 that are best for them.
18:19 So they earn less.
18:22 But it also matters for the economy, as a whole, because our talent is not being most
18:27 effectively used.
18:28 The big takeaway so far is that women in male-dominated sectors are going to make more money than
18:37 if they stay in the female-concentrated sectors.
18:41 What factors are associated with these women who manage to break the glass wall and cross
18:47 over?
18:48 There's a lot of diversity at the country level.
18:51 Here's a word cloud of all the factors that showed up.
18:56 But across these countries, across our 10 countries and the global data, some common
19:01 factors are emerging.
19:03 First of all, spousal support; having the spouse help with the introduction to the sector,
19:09 with providing finance, with providing moral and technical support as she enters this new
19:16 business.
19:17 That seems to be important.
19:19 The second, which we see everywhere is social networks and mentors, relatives, role models
19:26 in these male-dominated sectors, who are often men because these are male-dominated sectors.
19:31 Those are important for helping introduce and perhaps sustain the entrepreneurs as they
19:38 make this leap.
19:40 Early exposure and training in male-dominated sectors are also important.
19:47 Getting that sense that this is possible early in life.
19:51 Education matters a lot.
19:54 Socio-emotional skills, such as self-efficacy, also seem to matter.
19:57 Self-efficacy is broadly associated with entrepreneurial success around the world.
20:02 Here, we have women who are defying social norms.
20:06 This sense of empowerment is going to matter a lot to help make that leap and sustain.
20:14 Then, as I mentioned earlier, these are capital-intensive industries.
20:20 So access to capital and loans are going to be important.
20:25 Those are the factors.
20:26 Can we think about policies that help support women who want to make this transition?
20:36 The first policy we can think about is information.
20:39 In Ethiopia, we looked at what women knew about these male-dominated sectors and what
20:48 we found was that 64% of the women who were in female-concentrated sectors but earned
20:57 less than the average earnings in male-dominated sectors, 64% of those women thought that they
21:05 made the same or more.
21:07 So they didn't even know that these sectors were more profitable.
21:13 The second thing, policy handle we can think about, and here, we're still learning a lot
21:17 about how to do this effectively, is how can we improve spousal support?
21:23 In the Democratic Republic of Congo, women and men in the same household are both operating
21:31 businesses.
21:32 And the woman will have 50% lower profits, even when she's in the same sector as the
21:39 husband.
21:40 Is there a way to help these households work more effectively together for the benefit
21:45 of all?
21:46 Third thing to think about is removing financial constraints and providing access to that larger
21:51 growth capital for these female firms- dealing with the collateral problem.
21:56 The fourth is education and technical training in male dominated sectors, and we're going
22:03 to see an example of that in just a minute.
22:07 The next thing to think about is getting support early, thinking about starting this process
22:14 with our daughters, with the adolescents.
22:21 Another option is, also, as we provide that support, thinking about how we can engage
22:26 role models and mentors to help continue that support and sustain the transition.
22:34 Finally, once women move into these sectors, they're going against social norms.
22:43 We have to think about how we can support them in dealing and hopefully reducing harassment
22:51 and the discrimination that they're going to face.
22:53 Let me jump to an example of putting this policy into action, which comes from the Republic
23:00 of Congo.
23:01 Here, applicants do a vocational training program, were randomly assigned to watch a
23:07 sort of generic video or they were given a video on the trade-specific earnings, which
23:14 would reveal how much more profitable the male-dominated sectors are.
23:20 In fact, for men, this video meant neither…
23:23 It doesn't matter which video they watch.
23:26 But for women, there was a 28.6% increase in the number of women who enrolled in a male-dominated
23:34 trade once they saw this video with that information.
23:37 But as we saw earlier, other factors also matter.
23:41 Indeed, this treatment effect is almost four times larger among women who had technical
23:48 experience or prior knowledge of the sector.
23:51 Again, that early exposure matter.
23:53 It was three times larger among women with a male role model, that role model to help
23:59 sustain and help access.
24:03 Bottom line here, this is not an expensive or complicated intervention, but it's something
24:12 that can be scaled.
24:14 [Inaudible] talk about this later.
24:17 This is something that the World Bank is trying to scale and reach more young women across
24:24 sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere.
24:26 I'm going to stop here.
24:28 I just want to acknowledge the co-leader of the report, Naira Kalra, who's also connected,
24:35 and the large team.
24:37 These individual country studies were built up into this larger picture.
24:43 Thank you all and let me turn it back to you.
24:46 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Markus, and congratulations
24:51 to you, and Naira, and the entire team on this excellent report.
24:57 You illustrated the kind of evidence that the report brings on what helps women to overcome
25:04 the glass walls and the glass ceilings across sector, and how spousal support, social networks,
25:13 skills and capital matter, and what policies work in these areas.
25:19 It is my pleasure now to introduce our esteemed panelists, to share their views and experience
25:30 on occupational segregation, and on what holds women entrepreneurs back from entering male
25:37 dominated sectors, and what the solutions are to help them break into and succeed in
25:44 these more profitable sectors.
25:46 Miss Regina Honu is the CEO of Soronko Academy, a technology, coding and digital skills development
25:57 center in Africa, pioneering the way for young people, especially women and girls, to realize
26:04 their economic potential, equipping them with the technical and soft skills for dignified,
26:11 fulfilling jobs.
26:12 The academy is the first coding and human centered design academy in West Africa, has
26:19 trained over 20,000 women and girls, and has expanded to train boys, men, and children
26:28 with disabilities.
26:29 Welcome, Regina.
26:31 Miss Leticia Jauregui Casanueva is a serial entrepreneur, passionate about financial institutions
26:39 and especially financial inclusion and technology.
26:43 She has founded CREA, a nonprofit that has supported and trained over 200,000 women entrepreneurs
26:51 from marginalized communities in Mexico and Central America.
26:57 Leticia is also an angel investor and general partner of LEAP Global Partners, a cross-border
27:05 fund, and is also actively involved in the Mexican startup and entrepreneurship ecosystem.
27:13 Welcome, Leticia.
27:15 And Dr. Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti is the Deputy Minister for Economic Affairs at the
27:25 Ministry of National Development and Planning/Bappenas of the Republic of Indonesia who will share
27:34 with us the policy perspective.
27:37 Welcome Dr. Widyasanti.
27:40 Let me now turn to Regina.
27:43 Regina, you are a computer scientist.
27:47 You are now teaching girls how to code and you're empowering them to pursue opportunities
27:52 in STEM fields.
27:55 What has your experience been in a male dominated industry?
28:00 What challenges have you faced?
28:03 And what kind of strategies did you use to overcome them?
28:06 We'd love to hear your story.
28:08 [Regina Honu] Thank you so much, Hana.
28:11 Thank you for having me in this session and all the great work that was done in the report,
28:16 which resonates a lot with my own personal experience.
28:20 I'm just going to start off with, even at the beginning point of when I wanted to go
28:25 into technology; I faced a lot of people telling me it's just for boys.
28:31 There's this stereotype that girls are wired for art and humanities and boys are wired
28:37 for science and math.
28:38 It's almost as if there was the perception that, in our DNA, we're not going to be good
28:46 in the science and math field.
28:49 That was that initial hurdle, getting over that, and then when I finally went on to study,
28:55 in my educational system, the challenge was that it was a lot of rote memorization, and
29:01 I think for the more technical skills, you need a lot of practice.
29:05 Fast forward into my career.
29:07 When I started as a software developer, I was always in the minority.
29:12 I worked in two international banks before and I was the only female in the IT department.
29:19 I faced a lot of sexism, stereotyping, discrimination, you name it.
29:25 When I went off to start up my own business, all those things followed, because also coming
29:32 into this male dominated space, there is what I get, up to today, which is the five second
29:38 shock reaction.
29:39 Each time I present myself as a CEO of a tech business, there's always, "Hmm.
29:46 You're not what I expected."
29:48 And I'm always like, "Okay, I don't know what you're expecting."
29:52 Or you have some people that will say, "Oh, okay, are you sure you can build software?
29:55 Maybe you play with Microsoft Office and Microsoft Word then you think it's software development."
29:59 But one of the things that I think really stands out with the report is the economic
30:06 piece.
30:07 Because I became economically independent really fast because it was a high paying sector.
30:14 I stopped depending on my parents early on in my career.
30:18 And in my business, I saw that it made economic sense going into these male dominated spaces.
30:26 So for me, I have had to learn to develop a tough skin because you do get a lot of comments
30:32 and negative reactions.
30:33 There's also the cultural aspects, because if you're in a room of mostly men and you
30:40 assert yourself, you increase the number baritones in your voice, it's seen as disrespectful.
30:47 So I've had some experiences where I'm passionately trying to argue out a point and then the feedback
30:54 is why did I raise my voice past a certain point as I spoke to older men.
30:59 I've had to let them know that I'm just passionate and I'm trying to get my point across.
31:05 I also had to learn how to negotiate effectively, which is something that we're not socialized
31:11 here a lot to do.
31:12 Because we're socialized to be agreeable and smile, so when you come to spaces where lot
31:17 of men, you really have to be confident and you have to learn the art of negotiation because
31:22 the number of zeros always goes down.
31:24 I know as soon as I walk in, they decrease the zeros.
31:27 I have to make sure that I assert myself more so that my zeros comes back up to where it's
31:33 supposed to be.
31:34 These are all the different exchange.
31:35 And I think also there's the comparison and by society on if I'm fit enough for whatever
31:42 role I'm in.
31:43 What that means is that I'm a mother and a wife.
31:46 There'll be some people that will say to my husband, "How are you able to marry a woman
31:51 like this?"
31:52 Because I'm so confident and I have to be in my space.
31:53 Or they'll say, "How am I able to raise my daughter?"
31:57 Because I am chasing after my dreams and doing all sorts of things.
32:01 Those are all the different challenges.
32:04 And for me, I walk through them by building allies, identifying the gatekeepers of patriarchy
32:09 and seeing how we can work together, and making sure that we are empowering more women and
32:15 girls in the space, such that when people meet females in tech, it's not special, it's
32:20 just normal.
32:22 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Regina, for sharing your
32:28 story, and for sharing how you work, and how you are a role model, empowering girls and
32:34 women into STEM fields and more broadly in life.
32:38 Thank you for the story.
32:40 We will come back to you with some questions and we are also collecting questions through
32:44 the chat function.
32:45 Now, I'll turn to Leticia.
32:49 Leticia, evidence, as you know, shows that technical training, access to information
32:56 and education can enhance female entrepreneur's skills and knowledge and help facilitate their
33:02 transition to male dominated sectors.
33:05 In your experience, at CREA, what types of training do you find most effective to support
33:13 women entrepreneurs and how can we ensure the training programs meet the diverse needs
33:20 of women coming from different socioeconomic and educational backgrounds?
33:27 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] Thank you, Hana.
33:29 I'm very grateful and I'm proud to share this panel with you, with Regina, and Amalia.
33:34 This report is really illuminating.
33:36 It provides a necessary roadmap to ensure that women can prosper and thrive alongside
33:40 their male counterparts in any sector they choose, and I really congratulate the team
33:45 that worked so hard to bring it to life.
33:48 I've always been struck by how we're led to believe that some large companies are too
33:52 big to fail and that most micro and small enterprises are too small to succeed, especially
33:57 if they're led by women.
33:59 Throughout the years, CREA has been evaluating the impacts of its trainings and services
34:03 on the performance of these female entrepreneurs and we've seen that they actually do benefit
34:08 and can leverage these trainings to support themselves to grow, to access the necessary
34:15 resources they need to scale their businesses.
34:18 Most recently, we've seen preliminary results that show that after getting virtual training
34:22 around resilience, managerial and digital marketing skills, women that are trained are
34:28 almost twice as likely to legally register their brand with the authorities, for example.
34:33 We see that they do a lot more things to build businesses that can be a lot more sustainable
34:40 over time and eventually become more attractive for different types of financial services.
34:46 Over the last decades, we've seen some differences between necessity and opportunity entrepreneurs,
34:51 so between those that are forced to become entrepreneurs as a way to self-employ versus
34:55 those that are voluntarily choosing to start a business because they are able to identify
35:00 a good opportunity in the market and act on it.
35:04 But overall, I believe that what's made a very big difference for women that have gotten
35:09 training through CREA in how not only they manage the managerial digital and financial
35:15 skills, is training around soft skills and non-cognitive skills.
35:20 This is a type of training around socio-emotional skills that allows women to think outside
35:25 the box.
35:27 It's become a lot more relevant in a COVID-19 world, where most of the training became remote
35:33 and, in the future, it will still very likely be hybrid or blended.
35:38 What we in CREA include in this kind of training helps women think creatively and innovatively,
35:43 it helps them view the world as a positive somewhere world where collaboration and networks
35:48 can lead to improved results.
35:51 An example that I'd like to provide is the story of a woman who used to produce tamales.
35:57 She's from a town in Mexico where this is a traditional corn meal staple.
36:01 It's a type of food that we eat a lot in Mexico.
36:05 She faced a lot of competition from women in her town.
36:10 When she came to visit our office in Mexico City, she asked what people in our neighborhood
36:14 were called.
36:15 One of our colleagues said, "Oh, they're hipsters."
36:19 In line with what she had learned during these soft skills training sessions, she researched
36:24 what these hipsters liked than what they wanted, what they were purchasing.
36:27 She decided that she was not going to compete with the same product, with same type of traditional
36:34 tamale, but that she was going to differentiate her offering by making rice flour tamales
36:40 and vegan tamales.
36:41 She was going to flavor them with tea and other inputs that women from her network were
36:46 producing.
36:47 This helped her transform her business into a thriving one that grew to employ dozens
36:51 of women and that is now even exporting tamales.
36:54 It's just an example of how the combination of hard skills and these soft skills can really
37:00 allow women to integrate these, and differentiate their businesses, and scale.
37:06 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
37:10 You brought a very powerful illustration, how the combination of hard skills and soft
37:16 skills is important, and how the soft skills help women think creatively and take personal
37:23 initiative.
37:25 Let me now turn to Dr. Widyasanti.
37:27 Dr. Widyasanti, we are keen to hear your perspective as a policymaker.
37:33 In terms of policy, in your experience, why is it important to open up all sectors of
37:40 the economy to women?
37:42 And what are the costs for women, for men, for our societies and economy of gender based
37:50 sectors and occupational segregation?
37:52 Please tell us, what has been your experience in Indonesia?
37:57 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Thank you, Hana.
38:01 I would like to share my screen for a while.
38:08 As you know, based on studies, that there is actually mounting evidence around the globe
38:18 that promoting gender diversity among employees, management and boards can be a business boost,
38:25 and it could be also a boost to economies.
38:29 If you look at this, on the right chart, the growing number of studies have demonstrated
38:36 that there is a positive link between women's participation in the labor market and the
38:42 GDP growth.
38:43 I think this is a very good foundation that, actually, we need to really push the women
38:50 to really involve and contribute in economic activities in our country.
38:58 However, there are still some issues of the gender gap in the world.
39:03 For example, women in former employment by industries in selected Asian countries is
39:10 still low, and education levels for Indonesian women, for example, have been increasing,
39:16 but yet female labor participation stalled in 50% for the past 20 years, even though
39:25 the education levels for Indonesian women have been increasing and women participation
39:32 in education is also increasing.
39:33 Again, this is an issue that how actually the educated woman can really participate
39:41 in the labor market after their graduation is an issue.
39:49 Another important one is that disparities are observed within Asia and the Pacific.
39:59 Some countries have demonstrated wider gender gaps than others have.
40:03 There is also gender bias in segmentation of jobs.
40:07 For those in formal employment, such as real state, mining, quartering and water supply
40:14 sector are still under representation for women.
40:20 As a result, many women work in the informal sector, and therefore it caused a salary disparity
40:28 between genders across sectors.
40:31 With that, also there is a note from us that women's participation in STEM also declines
40:43 when they are entering the workforce.
40:46 Actually, when they are coming to the college, for example, the
40:57 pharmacy in the university, in the Department of Pharmacy, for example, most of the students
41:02 are women and most of the student in the Biology Department in the university are also women.
41:09 However, women's participation in the STEM workforce is actually still low.
41:16 For example, only two out of 10 professional workers and three out of 10 researchers are
41:25 women.
41:26 I think one of the reason is because there is still women gender stereotyping when they
41:37 are looking for job and women are less interested in STEM work or employment because of the
41:47 strong sentiment of male-dominated sectors.
41:50 Also, 45% of women say that they are less interested to work in STEM because of strong
41:58 sentiment of male domination.
41:59 I think this is actually the important issue that we have to tackle by really interfering
42:10 the policies.
42:12 I think I'll stop there, thank you.
42:20 [Hana Brixi] Dr. Widyasanti, thank you so much for sharing
42:28 the evidence and policy perspective from Indonesia.
42:33 I now would like to turn to our panelists with the second set of questions, including
42:39 questions from the audience.
42:41 In fact, Dr. Widyasanti, I would like to start with you, building on the presentation that
42:48 you shared, to ask you which policies you find most effective to support women entrepreneurs
42:57 in the near term, and which policies in your view are needed for the long term to support
43:04 the next generation of female entrepreneurs?
43:06 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Thank you, Hana.
43:09 I would like to provide the policy to support women entrepreneurs.
43:15 One is in the short term, and the second one is in a long term.
43:19 In the short term, the policy really needs to facilitate and support the development
43:27 of women friendly work environments, for the women.
43:34 The second one is that support women entrepreneurs to really connect to business associations
43:45 and business networks so it can really build the confidence of women.
43:50 The third one is incorporate women friendly approach, for example, that we can establish
44:00 the business development centers that provide consultancy to women who really would like
44:10 to be a good entrepreneur.
44:12 This is also very critical because, during the pandemic and also post pandemic, the digitalization
44:24 will be the key for the women entrepreneurs to really improve their productivity.
44:33 I think improving women skills in digitalization and digital technology will be very important,
44:42 such as improving or increasing women access to digital technology and also equip the women
44:54 to financial inclusion and financial technology.
44:58 For the long term, we really need to equip women by providing training courses, mentoring,
45:12 to develop entrepreneurship skill of the women.
45:19 The second one is to facilitate businesswomen to access markets by working with the government
45:28 and the private sectors.
45:29 The third one is to promote work life balance of the women who really become the entrepreneurs.
45:44 Promoting work life balance is very important so women with dual responsibilities can make
45:51 a balance between working and the family and also provide a greater access of women to
45:59 social protection.
46:00 Thank you, Hana.
46:02 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Dr. Widyasanti, for this
46:07 illustration of effective policies, including improving market access for women, building
46:14 entrepreneurship skills, enhancing digital inclusion and the financial inclusions, all
46:21 these important areas where policies have been very much following and building on the
46:27 evidence that is available.
46:30 Now, thinking of financial inclusion, I would like now to turn to Leticia.
46:34 Thinking about how evidence shows that male dominated sectors usually have higher capital
46:42 requirements.
46:44 In your experience, Leticia, what works to address the capital needs of female entrepreneurs,
46:52 and what could the entrepreneur, the private sector, development partners, and other stakeholders
46:58 do to improve the access to finance for women entrepreneurs?
47:05 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] The COVID-19 pandemic, I think, made it even
47:09 more evident that the economic autonomy of women is at risk due to a large percentage
47:14 of them being unemployed, underemployed, or employed in informal markets because of the
47:19 digital gender gap and due to low access to financial services.
47:22 I think no matter what kind of female entrepreneur we're looking at, be it those launching tech
47:27 startups, impact entrepreneurs, or female entrepreneurs with migrant small businesses,
47:32 they're all facing funding challenges and limitations in access to finance.
47:37 For example, in the case of Mexico, less than 11% of migrant small enterprises led by women
47:42 receive loans from financial institutions, and when they do receive them, those tend
47:47 to be a lot smaller than loans for male counterparts.
47:50 Markus already talked about the lack of access to collateral for most women and that's one
47:55 reason or example of why they have limitations in accessing this type of financial support.
48:01 But there's other sociocultural aspect that prevent women from accessing financial products,
48:06 be it because they don't feel comfortable going into those institutions, they have a
48:12 history of not being able to access them or being turned away.
48:18 There's a lot of challenges in how the businesses are structured and whether they have the right
48:22 kind of documentation and that sort of thing.
48:25 But it's very exciting to hear the type of policies that are going to be supported in
48:28 the short term, in the case of Indonesia, for example, as was mentioned by Madam Deputy
48:32 Minister.
48:33 I believe that, first and foremost, the private and public sectors could and should be collaborating
48:39 by creating incentives for individuals and organizations to invest in women owned enterprises.
48:44 In the case of migrant small enterprises, that means creating incentives for tailored
48:48 financial services for social capital, for impact investing.
48:52 It also means modernizing existing government guarantee grant and loan programs that can
48:58 support women entrepreneurs to compete in a changing environment that's also seeing
49:04 new types of investment models arise.
49:07 And it means creating new sources of capital by incentivizing crowdfunding-investing models,
49:12 for example, and other types of investment that are fiscally accessible for a lot more
49:17 people.
49:18 But as it also has been highlighted, it's not just about creating or boosting the offerings
49:23 on the financial side, it's also about strengthening the women's positions by supporting them in
49:28 accessing value chains and providing incentives for minority or diverse suppliers, regardless
49:33 of their size, for example.
49:35 It means supporting training in the digital economy for female entrepreneurs, similar
49:39 to what Regina is doing at Soronko Academy.
49:42 In order for that to happen, it means we need to provide access to connectivity, kind of
49:45 nationally in all of these countries.
49:49 It means providing financial and fiscal support for women to access business support services,
49:54 continuing education and training programs, as well as networks.
49:57 And in order to do that, it means we need to change the care systems to provide them
50:04 with access to longer school days, to childcare services, to many other services, because
50:12 otherwise one thing in isolation is not going to improve the ability for the women to access
50:18 that financial support, or they may be able to access the financial support, but they
50:23 won't be able to deliver the same kind of results that they could deliver if they had
50:28 access to the rest of the infrastructure and systems in place in order for them to be able
50:33 to grow successfully and compete, not only in male dominated sectors, but across the
50:39 economy in any way they decide to do so as entrepreneurs, as employees or even as students,
50:48 etcetera.
50:49 I think promoting access to financial instruments, markets, resiliency is a combination and an
50:55 ecosystem of factors that will allow these women to grow.
50:59 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
51:03 And I very much appreciate your emphasis on the partnership and alignment between the
51:07 public sector and the private sector to support incentives to address the needs of women.
51:13 And the fact that the alignment needs to cut across a number of areas from financing to
51:20 digital, to care services and so on to address the complex challenges that women entrepreneurs
51:26 face.
51:27 Now, I would like now to turn to Regina.
51:30 In fact, building on what Leticia was just discussing, we have received a question from
51:35 the audience about your experience as a CEO setting up your own business.
51:43 What kind of barriers you found or you experienced in getting financial support to grow your
51:50 business and the kind of barriers that you think that men would not face?
51:56 [Regina Honu] That's a very interesting question.
52:01 I just want to say what Leticia and the Deputy Minister said are all very [inaudible] and
52:07 I'm glad that we could have all those insights in the conversation.
52:10 When I was starting my business, I would say one of my early on barriers was not having
52:16 enough access to the right information, not having access to mentors to guide me through
52:24 the process.
52:25 Also, simply not knowing how to present well and understanding the financials between setting
52:29 up a sustainable business.
52:31 I would say early on in the beginning, and it wasn't something that was in my socialization.
52:36 I came into the space with an idea, but not enough of the technical know-how in terms
52:44 of how you set up a business.
52:45 So that was the first thing.
52:47 I had to take some time to understand what are the legal, the regulatory frameworks that
52:51 are required.
52:52 And there wasn't a lot of information at one place.
52:54 In my country, for example, you had to go to different regulatory bodies.
52:59 So getting started was an uphill battle because first you even needed to figure out where
53:07 do you have to go.
53:08 When it came to time for funding and presenting my business, I had to make a very strong case.
53:15 When I initially decided to present a model such as teaching women and girls coding, there
53:21 was an initial sort of backlash.
53:24 As in, it wouldn't work, they wouldn't get it, it was too early at its time.
53:29 But I had to really sort of pilot.
53:32 I used my own capital to do a proof of concept.
53:35 I would advise that it's good when funders see some self-investment into the idea to
53:41 see that you've put in some work.
53:43 I didn't go in just with the idea, I did some research.
53:47 I did some markets research also, because I wanted to go in with some insights.
53:51 I didn't want to come in into the space not really understanding what was happening on
53:56 the ground.
53:57 I also did some market research.
53:59 Then I presented a picture of where we were and where we could be going.
54:06 I think also the other challenge for me was getting over the self-doubt.
54:12 I say this because we hear this from a lot of female entrepreneurs.
54:15 It's like, they suffer this imposter syndrome, or they're afraid that they're not able to
54:20 meet whatever expectation is out there.
54:22 For me, I had to mute the voice that kept telling me I'm not able, I'm not going to
54:28 do well.
54:29 I'm going to fail.
54:30 Also, mute the voice of others that kept telling me, "Why don't you go into safer spaces?"
54:36 That's what they would say.
54:37 "Why don't you try something that you are more suited for?"
54:40 Whatever that may mean.
54:41 For me, technology is something that I love, that I'm passionate about.
54:45 Those were all the different challenges.
54:47 Another challenge which I have to add on is as soon as I started getting more successful
54:52 in my space, and I was climbing on into areas where the funding, the number of zeros was
54:58 getting up, I had to prove myself more even though I had a track record.
55:03 I was still coming in against opposition even though I had demonstrated that I could do
55:07 it.
55:08 But there was still a little bit of, “Can you show us a little bit of what you can do?”
55:14 Even though I've been doing it a lot.
55:18 Also, like I always say, you need mentors and you need allies.
55:19 Sometimes it is good to go into the space with maybe other men or other successful women
55:25 who have built a network, understand all those inner workings to get you off those hurdles.
55:30 I would definitely recommend mentors.
55:31 I would definitely recommend allies, and I would definitely recommend muting self-doubt.
55:38 [Hana Brixi] Thank you, Regina.
55:42 Again, you highlighted how the traditional norms are contributing to the many challenges
55:48 that women face.
55:51 I would like, actually, to build on your response and ask you another question.
55:55 That is how can role models and mentors help break traditional norms and serve as gate-openers
56:02 for women entrepreneurs to transition to male dominated sectors?
56:07 Specifically, what lessons do you have from your social initiative at the Soronko Academy?
56:16 Maybe a follow up question also, how can we engage men to help make male-dominated sectors
56:22 more inclusive?
56:23 [Regina Honu] Thank you very much.
56:25 I would start by even saying this conversation I'm having right now with Leticia and the
56:32 doctor is very inspiring.
56:33 I'm leaving with two role models that I'm looking at.
56:36 It's great to see such inspiring women and to hear from them.
56:41 Role models really show you that it's possible, especially in communities where you see women
56:46 are limited by the agenda.
56:49 This is what we come up against with the women that we engage with.
56:51 They come from communities where their mothers, their grandmothers did the same thing, and
56:56 it was very limiting.
56:58 To them, their aspiration is defined by their community.
57:01 So it's important that they see women that are breaking the mold, that have shattered
57:06 the glass ceiling, that are hopefully destroying the glass walls to show that it's possible.
57:11 It's also great that the young girls can see and have people to aspire.
57:17 For me, I didn't have a lot of female mentors when I was coming up, but now I have a whole
57:24 tribe, a whole army.
57:26 And I think that is important.
57:28 To answer your other question about learnings from training women and girls, especially
57:32 in digital, is you first have to work on that mindset that they're not good enough to come
57:38 into the spaces.
57:39 When the women unlock that potential, what they're able to do is really mind blowing.
57:44 We've had a woman come from doing nothing to now building a mobile app company and making
57:51 a lot of money.
57:52 Or we've had a young girl who felt that she wasn't going to be good in technology building
57:57 a really great app and then being a really great role model to others.
58:02 So it's really seeing that digital is not something that is gender specific.
58:06 The other question that you ask about how do we get men involved, I think we need to
58:13 have more conversations with the men in the room.
58:16 I see that each time we start to talk about gender, it's like it's filled with women,
58:20 we're speaking to the converted.
58:22 We run a program targeted at teaching our trainers across the country how to be gender
58:30 intentional.
58:31 Mostly, the trainers are men, unfortunately.
58:32 When you go across and you're looking for a lot of trainers.
58:38 And one thing we realize from having these conversations with the men is sometimes they're
58:42 unaware of the situations and the challenges, even though we think that we've been talking
58:48 a lot to them.
58:49 Sometimes, because they're excluded from the conversations, they're really unaware of the
58:54 issues.
58:55 In other times, they come up against a lot of sort of… the women will come up with
59:01 a lot of sort of anger with how they've been left behind.
59:02 For the men, they feel like they need to protect their territory.
59:07 They're scared of the world where women are empowered, where they lose their opposition.
59:12 We have to help them understand that is not what is going to happen.
59:19 It's better if we work together.
59:21 Innovation thrives with diversity, two perspectives.
59:23 It's important that we start talking to the men.
59:25 It's important that we get the men involved where we've seen women thrive in businesses
59:29 like it says in the reports, spousal support.
59:33 Having a male, their fathers, or uncles or brothers help them.
59:36 It's important that we really task the men to help us because when women win, we all
59:42 win.
59:43 That would be my feedback.
59:46 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Regina.
59:49 Indeed, you highlighted the importance to involve men in the solutions.
59:54 In this direction of thinking and discussion, I now would like to turn to Leticia with a
01:00:01 question we just received from the audience.
01:00:04 Where we are proposing a model that leads to a greater gender balance in sectors.
01:00:11 And that means not only more women in male-dominated sectors, but also more men in female dominated
01:00:17 sectors.
01:00:19 Should we promote men transition to female dominated sectors and how, Leticia?
01:00:26 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] This is a great question.
01:00:30 And I think it's very much related to what Regina was mentioning.
01:00:33 There has to be kind of that exchange.
01:00:36 And when we think about feminism, it means talking about men and women.
01:00:41 It doesn't just go one way and we need both men and women to be involved.
01:00:44 There are similar barriers and challenges for men trying to break into traditionally
01:00:49 female sectors.
01:00:50 They are very stigmatized.
01:00:53 There's a lot of pushback.
01:00:55 We also see that kind of pushback when men are taking paternal leaves now that a lot
01:01:01 of companies are including that as part of the support to men and women being co-responsible
01:01:08 in how they care for children, for example.
01:01:11 What we see is there's a lot of pressure for men not to take it.
01:01:14 And when they do, they are sometimes ostracized or pushed aside because it's considered that
01:01:19 it wasn't, quote, unquote, manly, or it was just there as a policy, but not to be used.
01:01:26 There's incredible cases of male nurses.
01:01:30 That's one of the professions, for example, where traditionally, if we think of a doctor,
01:01:33 we think of a man.
01:01:34 If we think of a nurse, we think of a woman.
01:01:38 There are a lot of programs that need to allow for anyone to participate in the type of profession
01:01:45 or entrepreneurial sector that they want.
01:01:48 I wanted to add another perspective to what Regina was saying, because I truly believe
01:01:56 that mentorship has allowed me to get to where I am, but there is a role for men to play
01:02:02 in the case of sponsorship.
01:02:04 Given that so many more men are in leadership positions and that women have to break through
01:02:10 those glass ceilings, there is an opportunity for men to not just mentor women, but actually
01:02:16 sponsor them so that they can get access to different kinds of funding.
01:02:20 That they can get access to new networks.
01:02:23 I think sometimes we forget about this additional component that goes beyond providing advice
01:02:29 and guidance, and actually means that you're going to put skin in the game.
01:02:32 And you're really going to put your reputation behind a woman.
01:02:37 The same could happen for these men that are trying to break into what are considered female
01:02:42 led sectors and for women to sponsor those men and to create and craft those opportunities.
01:02:50 I just wanted to say that because I think it's made a big difference in how women can
01:02:55 break through in some sectors where otherwise it would've been very complicated and some
01:02:59 men have been those types of sponsors and have created that type of opportunity.
01:03:04 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
01:03:08 You also very nicely illustrated that there is truly a win-win for women and men when
01:03:14 there is a better gender balance in sectors and in professions.
01:03:19 I now would like to, again, coming back to policies and what the government can do and
01:03:26 has been doing.
01:03:27 I would like to turn again to Dr. Widyasanti.
01:03:30 Dr. Widyasanti, considering women entrepreneurs who already crossed over to the male-dominated
01:03:39 sectors and the kind of unique challenges that they face in seeking success, what policies
01:03:46 and programs, in your experience, help female entrepreneurs to succeed in male dominated
01:03:55 sectors once they are there, once they successfully move into these sectors?
01:04:00 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] First of all, I would like to say that when
01:04:05 we are trying to convince women that they are able to cross to the male-dominated sectors,
01:04:15 then it is a good start for women to make them confidence to work in the male-dominated
01:04:24 sectors.
01:04:25 But the second one is that, also, we have to educate not only the women themselves,
01:04:31 but also the men themselves.
01:04:34 Where we have to open up the eyes of men in the men-dominated sectors that, actually,
01:04:41 they have to welcome women, their women colleagues, and women who would like to work in the male-dominated
01:04:51 sectors.
01:04:52 I think this is very important because once the male colleagues really open their minds
01:04:59 and also they welcome the women to work with them in the male-dominated sectors, then this
01:05:08 is really can upgrade the women to put their achievement and they can optimize their skills
01:05:19 and their achievement to achieve the success of the women in that male-dominated sectors.
01:05:27 I think this is a very important issue because it is to really break down the stereotyping
01:05:34 of women in that sectors and disseminate and also… the policies to open up male perception
01:05:47 is very important.
01:05:50 The third one is that we need also really to provide infrastructure for women to be
01:06:00 able to work in male-dominated sectors, for example, a childcare facility.
01:06:12 The other one is a breastfeeding facility.
01:06:18 So women with young children can still come to the workplace.
01:06:27 [Hana Brixi] Dr. Widyasanti, it looks like the connection
01:06:40 has dropped, but thank you for the important points that you made and the illustrations
01:06:46 about the policies and public investments that help women once they cross over in the
01:06:56 male-dominated sectors, and overall in entrepreneurship.
01:06:59 But you also illustrated that it is not only about top down policies and programs, but
01:07:04 it is also about changing the mindsets of men as well as women.
01:07:12 In that context, I would like to ask you and also ask Regina and Leticia about your perspective
01:07:18 on partnerships.
01:07:20 What kind of partnerships you find effective in your work as policymaker or as entrepreneur?
01:07:27 Specifically, if you have any reflections also on how international development partners
01:07:35 can support the efforts to empower female entrepreneurs and their success in male-dominated
01:07:44 sector.
01:07:45 So Dr. Widyasanti, back to you with this question.
01:07:48 Dr. Widyasanti, we cannot hear you.
01:07:53 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Partnership in the workplace is very important
01:07:58 because I feel that, also, I work in quite male-dominated education program and also
01:08:09 most of the level that I'm now is also a male-dominated position.
01:08:19 I think one of the important ones that we really need to show to our male colleagues
01:08:28 that women, when working, can also work professionally.
01:08:33 I think this is one way that we can really make our male colleagues confidence for women
01:08:43 to work together with them.
01:08:45 I think this is also important for the women.
01:08:49 That we can work together partnering with our male colleagues so they are confident
01:08:56 to work with us because they know that we can work professionally with them.
01:09:01 [Hana Brixi] Regina, the same question to you.
01:09:06 How do you see effective partnerships to address the challenges facing women in entering male
01:09:14 dominated sectors and succeeding in these sectors?
01:09:17 [Regina Honu] One of the things that I've seen that I've
01:09:21 worked in terms of partnerships is setting up setting culture systems.
01:09:27 For example, in my country, within the startup ecosystem for tech startups, there was a point
01:09:32 where funders were looking for businesses that had at least one female co-founder or
01:09:38 had at least a certain percentage of females that worked in the business.
01:09:42 That was an incentive for a lot of tech startups to be intentional about getting women on board
01:09:48 and into their teams.
01:09:50 We saw more women as either the co-founder or working in a technical role.
01:09:57 That is one.
01:09:58 The other one is being intentional about getting corporates to really look at how are they
01:10:04 doing when it comes to the gender dynamics in their organizations, how are they doing
01:10:08 when it comes to gender in the board positions, how are they doing when it comes to gender
01:10:13 in the decision-making process.
01:10:16 So we really have to get even corporate organizations, public institutions to look at how can they
01:10:22 be intentional about getting more women.
01:10:24 And then we'll see these types of partnerships will definitely work.
01:10:27 But I think there definitely needs to be a more of a push to get more women into these
01:10:34 male dominated [inaudible].
01:10:36 [Hana Brixi] Very good point on the need to have push as
01:10:39 well as pool to have more women in male-dominated sectors and succeed in these sectors.
01:10:47 Let me now turn with the same question to Leticia.
01:10:49 Leticia, from your perspective, what kind of partnerships you find effective in supporting
01:10:56 female entrepreneurs in male-dominated sectors?
01:10:58 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] Thank you, Hana.
01:11:00 And I love this kind of push and pull, because I think when we think about diversity, we
01:11:05 also need to think about inclusion.
01:11:06 That push and pull, and making sure that it's not just diverse, but they're also having
01:11:12 a voice and participation.
01:11:14 In the case of CREA I think everything we've been able to do has been through partnerships.
01:11:20 It's essential to partner with government and public institutions because they are the
01:11:24 ones that have the ability to provide access to all populations.
01:11:29 They have the ability to really influence and change legislations and policies.
01:11:35 What we can provide in a lot of cases is data about how to vocalize that type of support,
01:11:41 where it can be most effective and have evidence of how that investment can turn into economic
01:11:47 development.
01:11:48 We've had incredible partnerships with international organizations such as the World Bank around
01:11:52 impact evaluation, and being able to very rigorously measure the type of impact that
01:11:58 we want to have.
01:11:59 And that in turn gives us evidence and data that we can use with private sector partners
01:12:05 to gather the type of support, be it funding, resources, or access to new networks, that
01:12:10 can allow us to grow.
01:12:12 Then, finally, I think the word that Regina used is perfect.
01:12:16 How do we build a tribe of support around the women that we work with, around our own
01:12:22 needs as entrepreneurs, to be able to scale effectively and to be able to then pay it
01:12:29 forward to others that need us in their network and that need this kind of support?
01:12:34 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
01:12:38 We now have the final five minutes for this panel before we turn to Ms. Mamta Murthi,
01:12:47 Vice President for Human Development, for concluding remarks.
01:12:51 I just would like to ask a final question to each of you for a brief reflection, and
01:12:58 that is when you look into the future, you look for the next 10 years.
01:13:05 What should be our aspiration, as a global community, when it comes to female entrepreneurs
01:13:15 or, more broadly, women's economic empowerment?
01:13:19 And what solution or what approach you think would be most effective or most critical to
01:13:30 take on the way forward, to make a difference in the next 10 years?
01:13:36 Let me perhaps start with Regina.
01:13:39 [Regina Honu] For me, we definitely need more digital skills.
01:13:46 Women need to be equipped with the digital skills to be able to take advantage in whatever
01:13:53 industry that they find themselves.
01:13:55 Digital is always an enabler and sets you apart.
01:13:59 I am inspired by the work of initiatives such as the Women Entrepreneurs in Finance initiative
01:14:04 that's housed by the World Bank that is intentional about getting funding to more women entrepreneurs.
01:14:10 We need to see also more funding.
01:14:12 I think women are over mentored a little bit when it comes to entrepreneurship and not
01:14:17 funded as much.
01:14:18 We need to really close the funding gap.
01:14:22 And the last piece is we really need to showcase positive stories.
01:14:25 I think there are lots of amazing women doing our amazing work and it's time that we highlight
01:14:30 those women.
01:14:31 It's time that we normalize breaking glass ceilings and women don't feel like they're
01:14:36 alone on that path.
01:14:38 [Hana Brixi] Thank you, Regina.
01:14:41 I'm delighted.
01:14:42 In fact, in this discussion we have an opportunity to highlight such wonderful success stories
01:14:49 in embedded in ourselves, in our speakers.
01:14:53 Let me now turn to Leticia.
01:14:55 Same question, the aspiration and how to get there.
01:14:58 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] Thank you, Hana.
01:15:00 I think that's an ambitious question.
01:15:03 Something that you mentioned or alluded to earlier is having the possibility of not treating
01:15:12 women as a monolith.
01:15:14 I think one of the pending things is to really highlight the diversity of roles, leadership
01:15:20 positions, and success stories that exist across women.
01:15:23 And this is a report that highlights something that is a lot of times invisibilized: women
01:15:28 that are in male-dominated sectors, not just women that are doing incredible things where
01:15:33 we expect them to be, those incredible success stories.
01:15:38 One, I would say, really highlighting the diversity of success stories that we have
01:15:43 for women and sharing these role models across the board, so that any child, whether they
01:15:50 be a boy, girl, or anything they want to be, can get inspired and decide where they want
01:15:56 to grow into in the future.
01:15:58 And the second piece, in addition to everything that Regina said, is getting women into the
01:16:05 decision making positions so that the funding is available, so that digital skills and technological
01:16:11 opportunities are open, so that companies have a balanced culture and a positive culture
01:16:17 for women from the board to leadership position, and same in government, so that we have female
01:16:23 representatives such as Madam Deputy Minister that can inspire us to believe that we can
01:16:30 and will be developing in any sector that we want.
01:16:34 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia, and thank you
01:16:38 for highlighting the power of success stories and the value added of women's leadership,
01:16:45 of women's participation in decision-making.
01:16:48 Dr. Widyasanti, what is your take?
01:16:51 What is the aspiration and how to get there?
01:16:54 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Actually, we need to improve.
01:16:58 Life learning is very important for the women, so don't stop learning, because by life learning
01:17:07 means that we can always keep up with the opportunity and we can keep up with the new
01:17:15 technology and new opportunity.
01:17:19 Women have to do life learning throughout their lives.
01:17:24 The second one is that women have to improve their skills in building networking, because
01:17:32 by building the networking, we can help each other to promote, to be a higher position
01:17:40 for one another.
01:17:41 So women can be stronger to build their community and build stronger together in improving the
01:17:51 position of women to the important decision making process.
01:17:55 I think this is very important for women to be greater in the future.
01:18:00 [Hana Brixi] Excellent.
01:18:03 Thank you so much, Dr. Widyasanti, and I think your final remarks illustrate that, indeed,
01:18:10 action is needed on all fronts, from policies, programs, private sector, community, including
01:18:17 men, but also women to continue learning, and build their network, and have the audacity
01:18:23 to succeed.
01:18:24 With that, let me thank our distinguished panelists.
01:18:29 Thank you, Regina.
01:18:31 Thank you, Leticia.
01:18:32 Thank you, Dr. Widyasanti.
01:18:33 This has been a fascinating discussion and we very much look forward to continuing the
01:18:38 discussion, and continuing the collaboration, and continuing showcasing and drawing lessons
01:18:43 from the success stories that also each of you have shared.
01:18:48 I now would like to turn to Miss Mamta Murthi, Vice President for Human Development at the
01:18:55 World Bank, and invite Mamta to share her closing remarks.
01:19:02 Mamta, over to you.
01:19:03 [Mamta Murthi] Thank you very much, Hana, and thank you to
01:19:07 our distinguished panelists, and to Markus, Naira and the whole team that wrote the report.
01:19:15 I like to present myself as a little bit of a crossover, somebody who has moved into a
01:19:21 male dominated sector.
01:19:23 I'm an economist, and I quickly did a Google search, and one of the sites that I hit upon
01:19:29 said that 74% of economists in the world are men.
01:19:34 I've moved into a male dominated sector.
01:19:39 What each of you said really resonated with me.
01:19:43 Regina, I think it was you who said that we all need to inspire each other, and Leticia,
01:19:51 you said we need to be a tribe of successful women, and Dr. Widyasanti, you said we are
01:19:59 stronger together.
01:20:02 To me, to conclude based on the remarks that have been made at this panel, and reflecting
01:20:08 on the study, I think I'm drawing inspiration from what each of you has said.
01:20:17 First, just let me comment on some of the things that I heard which I found very inspiring
01:20:26 and I think we should reflect on as we go about our work.
01:20:31 Makhtar began by making us go through this thought exercise of what constitutes a man's
01:20:40 work and what constitutes a woman's work.
01:20:42 And he made the forceful case, that we have preconceptions, and this is often the root
01:20:49 cause of this “profitarchy”, as he called it, or gendered hierarchy of profits across
01:20:57 sectors.
01:20:58 I think this is something we should reflect on to begin changing in our own life and in
01:21:03 the work that we do, some of the norms that we operate under, mental norms that we operate
01:21:09 under.
01:21:11 Markus then made an excellent presentation of the Breaking Barriers report, and this,
01:21:16 of course, was complimented by the insights from all our panelists.
01:21:21 In Regina's remark, Regina is the CEO of the Soronko Academy, she described the five-second
01:21:30 shock reaction when she walks into a room, a male-dominated room, which typically drops
01:21:38 a zero when they see her.
01:21:40 Leticia, you talked about the importance of social, emotional skills.
01:21:45 That's very important.
01:21:48 These are not skills that tend to be emphasized, but they're very important for growing businesses.
01:21:53 Dr. Widyasanti, you highlighted the need for women, not only to obtain STEM degrees and
01:22:00 STEM skills, but also to pursue STEM fields.
01:22:04 All of these were very striking to me because they reaffirm in my mind some of the work
01:22:11 that we are doing in Human Development to support women and women entrepreneurs to move
01:22:18 into male dominated sectors.
01:22:21 Reports like the one that we launched today are a part of the analytical toolbox that
01:22:26 we have, and we use this analysis to support programs and have policy dialogue with countries
01:22:33 so that we can make an attempt to move the needle, or make a nudge that moves the needle,
01:22:40 and helps women acquire the skills, and enter sectors where they can be more productive,
01:22:45 helping themselves, their families, and of course, the economy.
01:22:51 I also want to say that, in the work of the World Bank, we try and start early.
01:22:56 We are pursuing some of these ideas not just at the post-secondary stage.
01:23:03 We try and pursue them at the secondary school level.
01:23:07 Our very successful SWEDD program focuses on providing skills and changing the mindset
01:23:12 of adolescent girls so that this process can begin early in life.
01:23:18 I want to touch upon some of the recurring themes in the discussion, all of which resonated
01:23:26 with me.
01:23:28 We talked about training, mentorship and building entrepreneurship skills amongst women, supporting
01:23:34 women to access markets and connect to other women entrepreneurs through business associations
01:23:40 and networks, linking women to role models and information.
01:23:45 Markus gave an excellent example from the study on the role of information in supporting
01:23:52 career choice.
01:23:55 We talked about the importance of access to finance, so the need for loans, grants, and
01:24:00 other ways of reaching women who do not have access to financial resources for entrepreneurship.
01:24:09 The collaboration between the public and the private sector, the role of care infrastructure,
01:24:15 the role of social norms.
01:24:16 All of these were highlighted and I think they are helping to enrich the way we, as
01:24:24 the World Bank, think about the work that we do in supporting change in female participation
01:24:34 and female entrepreneurship in male dominated sectors.
01:24:38 Now, I want to have two further reflections.
01:24:43 Although today's discussion focused on female entrepreneurship, because the Breaking Barriers
01:24:48 book is about female entrepreneurship; obviously, the issue of occupational segregation is broader
01:24:55 than entrepreneurship, and in fact, in the panel discussion, I noticed that both issues
01:25:02 were discussed: entrepreneurship, as well as female participation in male-dominated
01:25:10 sectors.
01:25:12 I very much want to underline the point that was made about the unfulfilled potential of
01:25:17 people, and of economies, by locking people out of certain sectors.
01:25:23 As we think about the underlying causes of occupational segregation, it's very important
01:25:31 to recognize that this starts early in life and accumulates over time, and that is why
01:25:37 early interventions are very important.
01:25:40 Here, I would like to say that, as the World Bank, we focus a fair bit on these early interventions.
01:25:50 We focus on secondary school, tertiary education.
01:25:56 We focus on skills and entrepreneurship training.
01:26:01 We think very carefully and have policy dialogue around the barriers that women have to access
01:26:11 in finance.
01:26:12 Each of these are early interventions in their own way.
01:26:16 We also focus on the care infrastructure, which is extremely important in supporting
01:26:21 female labor force participation.
01:26:25 I want to say that some of the research that has been undertaken
01:26:33 in the Breaking Barriers book, we are very happy is going to help us expand programs
01:26:42 that are having results.
01:26:46 Markus spoke about the program in the Republic of Congo, where we have learned that women
01:26:56 are more likely to apply for vocational training in male-dominated sectors when they receive
01:27:02 information about the prospects of these sectors.
01:27:06 I'm very happy to say that, based on these findings; we are proposing to go forward with
01:27:12 additional resources and additional financing which will aim to reach seven and a half thousand
01:27:18 additional women with this information on sector specific earnings to nudge further
01:27:25 the decision to go into a male-dominated sector.
01:27:28 Of course, we are aware that a result that you see in a small scale may not necessarily
01:27:35 translate as you try to scale up.
01:27:38 This is something that we will continue to research and observe to make sure that we
01:27:44 learn from the experience of taking something from a small scale to a larger scale so that
01:27:52 we can improve upon it and provide advice, not just in the Republic of Congo, but elsewhere.
01:28:00 Finally, I'm going to conclude with two remarks.
01:28:06 This is a year when we are coming to the end of gender strategy.
01:28:12 We are in the process of developing a new gender action plan.
01:28:16 Events such as this one and the launch of the report like Breaking Barriers, is an opportunity
01:28:23 for us to reflect on what have we learned as an institution on what works in promoting
01:28:30 gender equality.
01:28:34 Because we're in this process of thinking about what are the areas that the World Bank
01:28:38 should focus on next, I really welcome your participation and all those who are participating
01:28:44 via the chat function.
01:28:45 I really welcome this because it's pushing us to think, to refine our thoughts further,
01:28:51 and to develop more and better programs, and provide better policy advice to governments
01:29:00 on how to improve female participation in male dominated sectors and how to accelerate
01:29:06 equality.
01:29:08 That's just to place this event in the context of this yearlong effort that we have, to think
01:29:15 about our action plan for the coming years.
01:29:20 The last point I want to make is that, and I don't want to lose the specific focus of
01:29:25 today's report launch, we really are committed to ensuring that women entrepreneurs can imagine
01:29:34 male-dominated sectors.
01:29:36 And in our view, this goes beyond breaking the walls to the side, the glass walls, as
01:29:45 Markus described.
01:29:47 It also requires breaking of the glass ceiling.
01:29:51 We are very aware that issues of harassment and discrimination in male dominated workspaces
01:29:57 are a factor that holds women back.
01:30:00 That's another area on which we intend to continue to focus and continue to engage so
01:30:05 that we can understand better the role that institutions like ourselves can play in helping
01:30:12 reduce harassment and discrimination.
01:30:14 With that, I want to thank you very much for your engagement.
01:30:19 It's been a terrific hour and a half.
01:30:23 I hope you all believe that it's been very well spent, and please do continue to engage
01:30:28 with us, continue to send us your suggestions as we work both on our strategy and action
01:30:34 plan for the coming years, but also as we work on supporting more female entrepreneurs
01:30:40 in male dominated sectors.
01:30:41 With that, thank you.
01:30:42 I'm going to hand it back to you, Hana.
01:30:46 [Hana Brixi] Thank you very much, Mamta.
01:30:50 Thank you for your concluding remark highlighting how important the discussion today has been
01:30:56 and will be for the future, including informing what the World Bank is doing, how the World
01:31:01 Bank is engaging, and what will come into the new action plan, and also the importance
01:31:08 of the report, of evidence to inform policy change and further change on the way forward.
01:31:14 I also would like to thank, again, Markus, Naira and the team that developed the report
01:31:20 and presented evidence to inform and inspire further change and interventions.
01:31:25 I would like also thank to Makhtar for the opening remarks, our distinguished panelists,
01:31:32 Regina, Leticia, and Dr. Widyasanti.
01:31:35 Thank you again for sharing your perspectives, your insights, and your own success stories
01:31:42 as role models.
01:31:44 Finally, I would like to thank our audience for your active participation and we are very
01:31:49 much looking forward to continuing the discussion and collaboration on the way forward.
01:31:55 Thank you.
01:31:56 And all the best from all of us.

Breaking Barriers: Female Entrepreneurs Who Cross Over to Male-Dominated Sectors

Follow the event on Twitter #AccelerateEquality

Women not only face the infamous glass ceiling as they move up in the ranks. They are further encircled by glass walls, making it challenging for them to enter more profitable, traditionally male-dominated sectors. Some of the many push-and-pull factors holding women back from entering male-dominated sectors include unconscious biases, societal norms, lack of exposure to these sectors, time, and capital constraints. Yet, very little research exists to identify the factors that support women to enter such sectors.

A new World Bank report, “Breaking Barriers: Female Entrepreneurs Who Cross Over to Male-Dominated Sectors”, aims to fill the gaps in the literature on gender-based sectoral segregation. On February 10, we will launch this report and host a conversation among practitioners and experts on sectoral choice as one of the contributors to gender gaps in firm performance. Panelists will share their views on the factors preventing women from entering more profitable male-dominated sectors and discuss evidence-based policies and programs to help them cross over into these sectors.

Use the following timestamps to navigate different sections of the video.

00:00 Welcome and opening remarks
10:55 Main insights from the World Bank's report
27:44 Empowering girls and women into STEM fields
32:50 Training programs to support women entrepreneurs
37:29 Opening up all sectors of the economy to women
46:33 Addressing the capital needs of female entrepreneurs
51:34 Barriers for women entrepreneurs in getting financial support
55:56 How can role models and mentors help break traditional norms
1:00:04 Promoting a men transition to female dominated sectors
1:03:32 Public policies that are helping women entrepreneurs succeed
1:07:13 Partnerships: The support from international development partners
1:12:58 Looking to the future: The best approach on the way forward
1:18:48 Closing remarks

Speakers

Makhtar Diop

Managing Director, IFC
@Diop_IFC
Markus Goldstein

Lead Economist, Africa Gender Innovation Lab and Chief Economists Office
@markus_gold
Mamta Murthi

Vice President for Human Development, World Bank
@MamtaMurthi
Regina Honu

CEO, Soronko Academy
@ragyare
Leticia Jauregui Casanueva

Founder, Crea Comunidades de Emprendedores Sociales
@ljauregui
Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti

Deputy Minister for Economic Affairs, Ministry of National Development Planning/Bappenas of the Republic of Indonesia

Moderator

Hana Brixi

Global Director, Gender, World Bank
@WBG_Gender

Read the transcript

00:00 [Hana Brixi] I am Hana Brixi, Global Director for Gender
00:03 at the World Bank, and today we will have a fascinating discussion of the new evidence
00:10 and experience about female entrepreneurs who cross over to male-dominated sectors.
00:17 The new analysis that will be presented and discussed was produced by the network of the
00:24 World Bank Group's Regional Gender Innovation Labs with the support of the Umbrella Fund
00:29 for Gender Equality.
00:31 So why is this new analysis important?
00:34 Well, we know that sectoral choice matters for firm performance.
00:40 But exactly, why and how occupational segregation matters for women entrepreneurs?
00:47 And why and how does it matter for their profitability and growth?
00:52 These are questions that have not been addressed adequately so far.
00:57 The new publication brings rich global synthesis of research on occupational segregation of
01:04 female entrepreneurs.
01:06 It looks at the most salient factors associated with being a female entrepreneur who crosses
01:13 over to a male-dominated sector.
01:17 And the report takes us to 10 countries in three regions and it shares insights from
01:23 a global survey of entrepreneurs.
01:26 So with us here today, a distinguished group of speakers will discuss what policies and
01:35 programs can support women entrepreneurs to cross over to and, ultimately, succeed in
01:44 typically more profitable male-dominated sectors.
01:48 Speakers, whom I will introduce in a moment, will also address your questions, questions
01:56 from the audience that we are collecting via the chat function.
02:00 We will start now opening remarks by Makhtar Diop, Managing Director and Executive President
02:09 of the International Finance Corporation at the World Bank Group.
02:13 Makhtar, thank you for joining us, and the floor is yours.
02:16 [Makhtar Diop] Hi, good morning, everybody.
02:18 And good morning, Hana.
02:20 Good morning, Mamta.
02:21 Good morning, Markus, our colleagues of the World Bank that have been working on this
02:25 topic.
02:26 It's a huge pleasure to be here today with you because as many of you know, this an area
02:31 which is very dear to my heart, but let me just say a few word of introduction to kick
02:37 off the conversation that I know will be very rich with all of them, it's a very great panel
02:42 that we have put together.
02:45 Let's start by just an image, which is to picture an owner of a construction firm and
02:55 a company, an IT company, an automotive repair shop, and to picture which gender will be
03:00 leading that company.
03:02 If you see a man, is not surprising because these are sectors, which are highly dominated
03:08 by men.
03:09 They're dominated by men, they are the owners, and these companies tend to be very profitable,
03:19 much more profitable than sector like trade or retails where female-owned firms tend to
03:26 concentrate.
03:27 This is an example of the global profit arch here and I love this concept, which is a concentration
03:32 of women in less profitable sectors and less profitable economic activities within sectors
03:38 when they are compared to men.
03:40 And this profit, actually, is doing more than just holding women back financially; it's
03:45 a limiting global economic potential on a massive scale.
03:50 We know, looking at the literature and economic research, that over the last 50 years, the
03:56 increased participation of human and other marginalized group in high-scale profession
04:02 has contributed significantly to a GDP growth.
04:07 Some estimate that in the U.S., he has contributed to 40% of GDP growth per capital.
04:12 Economist, also researcher, first estimate that eliminating with the occupational gap
04:21 in gender could also have a significant impact on GDP.
04:24 Some are estimated at 10%, which is an order of magnitude of this impact.
04:32 This number can't be ignored, they are significant.
04:35 And every day that an entrepreneur faces limited job choices based on their gender is a day
04:41 that we all lose because GDP growth is lower.
04:44 And we have much less contribution to wealth in countries and to reducing inequity.
04:50 Fortunately, there are actionable steps that we can take to help close this gap and ensure
04:58 more equitable access to opportunity and that's where we are in today to discuss.
05:03 This report is, for me, an essential report and a great contribution in the work that
05:11 the Bank is doing, but also a great contribution in the discussion on gender in emerging economy,
05:19 specifically.
05:20 The new World Bank Report breaking barriers, female entrepreneur will cross over to male-dominated
05:26 sector, examine what went right for women who did make the leap into profession typically
05:33 dominated by men.
05:34 The research discovered 10 countries and three regions, paints a clear picture.
05:40 Women who operate business in male-dominated sector outperform women operating in female-dominating
05:45 sectors.
05:46 For example, in Uganda, that was the first time, really, I come across that evidence,
05:53 women in male-dominated sector earn as much as men in their sector and 100% more than
06:01 women in female-concentrated sector.
06:05 In Lao, women in male-dominated sector earn about 80% more than women in female-concentrated
06:12 sectors.
06:13 So all these numbers are important, but the main lesson to take from that is that helping
06:22 women break into this traditional male-dominated field could help close persistent economic
06:29 gender gap.
06:30 At IFC, which is a private sector branch of the World Bank Group, we work with client
06:35 in getting more women in the construction industry.
06:38 This is the case in Papua New Guinea and in India.
06:40 We are addressing, also, this gap in an even more urgent manner in the wake of the COVID-19
06:47 crisis, which dealt a major blow to the gender equity progress made around the world in recent
06:53 years.
06:54 The pandemic forced countless women out of the work market and into unpaid care work.
07:01 And supporting women-owned businesses and female entrepreneur will be essential to ensuring
07:07 an equitable, sustainable, and resilient recovery.
07:11 So building back better should be centered on those questions, which are reducing inequity,
07:20 but also allowing us to reduce that income gap between women and men.
07:29 Implementing programs and policies that empower women to enter more profitable sectors, maximize
07:36 their opportunities, should be an important part of this effort and the breaking barrier
07:42 report give us a very good insight.
07:44 I just wanted to end off by saying that I was, last week, in East Africa.
07:50 I visited Kenya and I visited Tanzania.
07:54 And the demand for this is very important.
07:57 I met with the head of state of Tanzania, the president was a woman, and she asked IFC
08:05 to make the gender agenda the main entry point of our intervention in Tanzania.
08:13 So we will be working very much with companies.
08:15 We are working with banks to be able to have particular targeted credit for women, particularly
08:22 SMEs.
08:23 And the finding around this question for us would be very important because we will try
08:28 to translate it in our dialogue with companies that we are supporting and ensuring that we
08:35 take into account this breaking barrier agenda in the support that we are bringing to women-led
08:45 companies.
08:46 So you will see more of us, more of IFC talking about this agenda because as we are entering
08:56 more and more centrally in our work, in emerging economies in a post-COVID-19 era, we have
09:05 an opportunity here to do great things.
09:08 So we have today a very distinguished, good group of panelists and they're going to dive
09:14 in this specific policy recommendation in just a minute.
09:18 I just want to end off by saying that I would like a big thanks to Markus Goldstein.
09:23 He was a colleague I worked with very closely when I was VP for Africa for the World Bank
09:29 and we had the privilege of launching the first gender innovation lab.
09:33 It was a very, very important part of our work.
09:36 I would like, also, to thank my VP, Mamta Murthi, who was also part of the Africa team
09:44 that was supporting the work that was done, which was replicated in the rest of the institution
09:51 and I'm very glad that now, is becoming very much a centerpiece of the work that the gender
09:59 group is doing across the World Bank Group.
10:03 Now, I'm sure that you are eager to listening to the specialists, those who have been working
10:11 on this.
10:12 I hope that this report will bring us some more insight that will help us in our work
10:19 at IFC with companies, SMEs, to be able to break this barrier.
10:24 So I handing it to you, Hana, and I wish to all of you a very, very successful discussion
10:31 and session.
10:32 Thank you.
10:34 [Hana Brixi] Makhtar, thank you so much for your opening
10:37 remarks and for your vivid illustration of the challenge of occupational segregation,
10:44 and also the illustration how IFC is involved in addressing the challenge and in improving
10:49 and supporting gender equality in the private sector.
10:53 Let me now invite my colleague, Markus Goldstein, who is the Head of the World Bank's Africa
10:59 Gender Innovation Lab and the lead author of the new report.
11:04 Markus, please, we are all eager to hear your insights from the report and the key findings
11:11 and recommendations of the report.
11:13 So the floor is yours.
11:15 [Markus Goldstein] Thanks, Hana.
11:19 Can you see my slides okay?
11:24 [Hana Brixi] Yes, we can.
11:27 [Markus Goldstein] Great.
11:28 What I'm going to do is take you through a quick tour of the report and then, later,
11:33 we're going to have lots of discussion in a super awesome panel.
11:40 This report is a big team effort and we'll have credits at the end.
11:49 Let's go to Uganda, and Makhtar had us do this thought exercise.
11:54 When we think of a female entrepreneur [inaudible], I'm more likely to think of these women who
12:02 are hairdressers.
12:04 That's a female-concentrated sector.
12:06 I'm less likely to think about Betty.
12:10 Betty is a metalworker and that is a male-dominated sector in Kampala, and in many countries in
12:17 the world.
12:19 This report asked the question, "What can we learn from women like Betty, not to make
12:24 women more like men, but to level the playing field so that opportunities are closer to
12:31 equal?"
12:33 What's new about this report?
12:35 Super exciting data.
12:37 We have survey data from 10 countries in Sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and Southeast Asia.
12:44 And this is complemented with global data from the Future of Business survey, which
12:50 is implemented through a social media platform that covers 97 countries.
12:55 Generally, the survey data is looking at micro entrepreneurs.
12:59 This Future of Business survey also gives us some insight into larger businesses, as
13:06 well.
13:07 When we're talking about these sectors, what are we talking about?
13:13 Male-dominated sectors are things like automobile, maintenance, and sales.
13:18 Here, you can see in all three regions that we're looking at the data for, it's male-dominated.
13:23 Female-dominated sectors, let's go back to Kampala; we have our hairdressers in all three
13:30 regions.
13:32 We define it for the purposes of the analysis here, as 70 to 75% of firms are owned by men:
13:39 that makes a male-dominated sector.
13:41 Now, I think it is important to keep in mind that throughout the world, there is diversity
13:46 in what these sectors are, as well.
13:50 So wood manufacturing and repair, for example, in Latin America and Sub-Saharan Africa is
13:56 male-dominated, but it's female-concentrated in East Asia.
14:00 Trade of textile and footwear, diverse across regions, but also within regions.
14:05 In East Asia, some countries, that's male-dominated; in some, it's female-concentrated.
14:13 Now, this sectoral contribution, I think one important thing to keep in mind is when we
14:18 look at this graph is that women are concentrated.
14:22 Women are found in a smaller number of sectors.
14:25 Their sectors, these female-concentrated sectors, they're crowded.
14:30 And that means that profits are going to be lower, competition is going to be more intense.
14:34 They also are characterized by more informality.
14:36 And sometimes, they're characterized by lower potential for growth.
14:40 Men, on the other hand, are in a larger number of sectors and so, maybe competition is less,
14:47 there's more opportunity for profits.
14:51 What underpins this is…
14:52 Or sort of, you can think of two main kinds of factors.
14:56 First is social rules.
14:57 So let me give you an example.
15:00 My children attended the local public elementary school and there were, out of 50 teachers,
15:06 there were two men.
15:09 What happens to my children when they leave elementary school?
15:12 They think of elementary school teachers as women.
15:18 And this kind of… it wasn't something someone said to them or it's this role modeling, these
15:25 social roles that evolve over time.
15:27 When I went to school, it was the same thing.
15:29 And so they persist over time.
15:32 These ideas, these norms of what's appropriate for, quote, "appropriate" for women, those
15:40 persist.
15:42 The other side of things to think about are constraints in the market.
15:46 Women are less likely to have collateral.
15:48 They're less likely to own property in almost every country in the world.
15:54 They're going to have more trouble getting finance.
15:56 There are these constraints in the market, as well as these social roles, that underpin
16:01 this persistence over time.
16:05 This matters, as Makhtar told us, and in many countries, this is a major contributor to
16:15 the earnings gaps between male and female entrepreneurs.
16:18 Let's look at the numbers.
16:19 If we look at this “profitarchy”, as Makhtar indicated, in Uganda, Betty, our metal worker,
16:31 women like her, on average, are making 140% more, more than double, the hairdressers that
16:42 we saw.
16:43 Right?
16:44 Hugely big profit differentiation.
16:46 Now, one thing to keep in mind is what we're talking about today is horizontal segregation.
16:51 Think of glass walls, not the glass ceiling.
16:55 But we also in this world have vertical segregation, the glass ceiling we've heard a lot about.
17:02 Mexico gives us a good example.
17:04 The most profitable firms in our data from Mexico are males in male-dominated sectors.
17:11 The second most profitable are males in female-concentrated sectors.
17:19 What you're seeing here is that the number three, is females in male-dominated sectors.
17:26 So even when women break in, in the case of Mexico, when they break into male-dominated
17:31 sectors, they're not making the same.
17:35 Today, we're talking about this transition across sectors, but you have to keep in mind
17:43 that even once that's achieved, we're going to have issues, and that's for another time,
17:50 of advancement within the sector.
17:52 We often find, for example, that women are concentrated in the lower value part of different
17:58 sectors.
18:00 But coming back to this crossing over and this occupational segregation, I want to reiterate
18:08 a point that Makhtar made is that this, basically, is preventing people from getting to the jobs
18:16 that are best for them.
18:19 So they earn less.
18:22 But it also matters for the economy, as a whole, because our talent is not being most
18:27 effectively used.
18:28 The big takeaway so far is that women in male-dominated sectors are going to make more money than
18:37 if they stay in the female-concentrated sectors.
18:41 What factors are associated with these women who manage to break the glass wall and cross
18:47 over?
18:48 There's a lot of diversity at the country level.
18:51 Here's a word cloud of all the factors that showed up.
18:56 But across these countries, across our 10 countries and the global data, some common
19:01 factors are emerging.
19:03 First of all, spousal support; having the spouse help with the introduction to the sector,
19:09 with providing finance, with providing moral and technical support as she enters this new
19:16 business.
19:17 That seems to be important.
19:19 The second, which we see everywhere is social networks and mentors, relatives, role models
19:26 in these male-dominated sectors, who are often men because these are male-dominated sectors.
19:31 Those are important for helping introduce and perhaps sustain the entrepreneurs as they
19:38 make this leap.
19:40 Early exposure and training in male-dominated sectors are also important.
19:47 Getting that sense that this is possible early in life.
19:51 Education matters a lot.
19:54 Socio-emotional skills, such as self-efficacy, also seem to matter.
19:57 Self-efficacy is broadly associated with entrepreneurial success around the world.
20:02 Here, we have women who are defying social norms.
20:06 This sense of empowerment is going to matter a lot to help make that leap and sustain.
20:14 Then, as I mentioned earlier, these are capital-intensive industries.
20:20 So access to capital and loans are going to be important.
20:25 Those are the factors.
20:26 Can we think about policies that help support women who want to make this transition?
20:36 The first policy we can think about is information.
20:39 In Ethiopia, we looked at what women knew about these male-dominated sectors and what
20:48 we found was that 64% of the women who were in female-concentrated sectors but earned
20:57 less than the average earnings in male-dominated sectors, 64% of those women thought that they
21:05 made the same or more.
21:07 So they didn't even know that these sectors were more profitable.
21:13 The second thing, policy handle we can think about, and here, we're still learning a lot
21:17 about how to do this effectively, is how can we improve spousal support?
21:23 In the Democratic Republic of Congo, women and men in the same household are both operating
21:31 businesses.
21:32 And the woman will have 50% lower profits, even when she's in the same sector as the
21:39 husband.
21:40 Is there a way to help these households work more effectively together for the benefit
21:45 of all?
21:46 Third thing to think about is removing financial constraints and providing access to that larger
21:51 growth capital for these female firms- dealing with the collateral problem.
21:56 The fourth is education and technical training in male dominated sectors, and we're going
22:03 to see an example of that in just a minute.
22:07 The next thing to think about is getting support early, thinking about starting this process
22:14 with our daughters, with the adolescents.
22:21 Another option is, also, as we provide that support, thinking about how we can engage
22:26 role models and mentors to help continue that support and sustain the transition.
22:34 Finally, once women move into these sectors, they're going against social norms.
22:43 We have to think about how we can support them in dealing and hopefully reducing harassment
22:51 and the discrimination that they're going to face.
22:53 Let me jump to an example of putting this policy into action, which comes from the Republic
23:00 of Congo.
23:01 Here, applicants do a vocational training program, were randomly assigned to watch a
23:07 sort of generic video or they were given a video on the trade-specific earnings, which
23:14 would reveal how much more profitable the male-dominated sectors are.
23:20 In fact, for men, this video meant neither…
23:23 It doesn't matter which video they watch.
23:26 But for women, there was a 28.6% increase in the number of women who enrolled in a male-dominated
23:34 trade once they saw this video with that information.
23:37 But as we saw earlier, other factors also matter.
23:41 Indeed, this treatment effect is almost four times larger among women who had technical
23:48 experience or prior knowledge of the sector.
23:51 Again, that early exposure matter.
23:53 It was three times larger among women with a male role model, that role model to help
23:59 sustain and help access.
24:03 Bottom line here, this is not an expensive or complicated intervention, but it's something
24:12 that can be scaled.
24:14 [Inaudible] talk about this later.
24:17 This is something that the World Bank is trying to scale and reach more young women across
24:24 sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere.
24:26 I'm going to stop here.
24:28 I just want to acknowledge the co-leader of the report, Naira Kalra, who's also connected,
24:35 and the large team.
24:37 These individual country studies were built up into this larger picture.
24:43 Thank you all and let me turn it back to you.
24:46 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Markus, and congratulations
24:51 to you, and Naira, and the entire team on this excellent report.
24:57 You illustrated the kind of evidence that the report brings on what helps women to overcome
25:04 the glass walls and the glass ceilings across sector, and how spousal support, social networks,
25:13 skills and capital matter, and what policies work in these areas.
25:19 It is my pleasure now to introduce our esteemed panelists, to share their views and experience
25:30 on occupational segregation, and on what holds women entrepreneurs back from entering male
25:37 dominated sectors, and what the solutions are to help them break into and succeed in
25:44 these more profitable sectors.
25:46 Miss Regina Honu is the CEO of Soronko Academy, a technology, coding and digital skills development
25:57 center in Africa, pioneering the way for young people, especially women and girls, to realize
26:04 their economic potential, equipping them with the technical and soft skills for dignified,
26:11 fulfilling jobs.
26:12 The academy is the first coding and human centered design academy in West Africa, has
26:19 trained over 20,000 women and girls, and has expanded to train boys, men, and children
26:28 with disabilities.
26:29 Welcome, Regina.
26:31 Miss Leticia Jauregui Casanueva is a serial entrepreneur, passionate about financial institutions
26:39 and especially financial inclusion and technology.
26:43 She has founded CREA, a nonprofit that has supported and trained over 200,000 women entrepreneurs
26:51 from marginalized communities in Mexico and Central America.
26:57 Leticia is also an angel investor and general partner of LEAP Global Partners, a cross-border
27:05 fund, and is also actively involved in the Mexican startup and entrepreneurship ecosystem.
27:13 Welcome, Leticia.
27:15 And Dr. Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti is the Deputy Minister for Economic Affairs at the
27:25 Ministry of National Development and Planning/Bappenas of the Republic of Indonesia who will share
27:34 with us the policy perspective.
27:37 Welcome Dr. Widyasanti.
27:40 Let me now turn to Regina.
27:43 Regina, you are a computer scientist.
27:47 You are now teaching girls how to code and you're empowering them to pursue opportunities
27:52 in STEM fields.
27:55 What has your experience been in a male dominated industry?
28:00 What challenges have you faced?
28:03 And what kind of strategies did you use to overcome them?
28:06 We'd love to hear your story.
28:08 [Regina Honu] Thank you so much, Hana.
28:11 Thank you for having me in this session and all the great work that was done in the report,
28:16 which resonates a lot with my own personal experience.
28:20 I'm just going to start off with, even at the beginning point of when I wanted to go
28:25 into technology; I faced a lot of people telling me it's just for boys.
28:31 There's this stereotype that girls are wired for art and humanities and boys are wired
28:37 for science and math.
28:38 It's almost as if there was the perception that, in our DNA, we're not going to be good
28:46 in the science and math field.
28:49 That was that initial hurdle, getting over that, and then when I finally went on to study,
28:55 in my educational system, the challenge was that it was a lot of rote memorization, and
29:01 I think for the more technical skills, you need a lot of practice.
29:05 Fast forward into my career.
29:07 When I started as a software developer, I was always in the minority.
29:12 I worked in two international banks before and I was the only female in the IT department.
29:19 I faced a lot of sexism, stereotyping, discrimination, you name it.
29:25 When I went off to start up my own business, all those things followed, because also coming
29:32 into this male dominated space, there is what I get, up to today, which is the five second
29:38 shock reaction.
29:39 Each time I present myself as a CEO of a tech business, there's always, "Hmm.
29:46 You're not what I expected."
29:48 And I'm always like, "Okay, I don't know what you're expecting."
29:52 Or you have some people that will say, "Oh, okay, are you sure you can build software?
29:55 Maybe you play with Microsoft Office and Microsoft Word then you think it's software development."
29:59 But one of the things that I think really stands out with the report is the economic
30:06 piece.
30:07 Because I became economically independent really fast because it was a high paying sector.
30:14 I stopped depending on my parents early on in my career.
30:18 And in my business, I saw that it made economic sense going into these male dominated spaces.
30:26 So for me, I have had to learn to develop a tough skin because you do get a lot of comments
30:32 and negative reactions.
30:33 There's also the cultural aspects, because if you're in a room of mostly men and you
30:40 assert yourself, you increase the number baritones in your voice, it's seen as disrespectful.
30:47 So I've had some experiences where I'm passionately trying to argue out a point and then the feedback
30:54 is why did I raise my voice past a certain point as I spoke to older men.
30:59 I've had to let them know that I'm just passionate and I'm trying to get my point across.
31:05 I also had to learn how to negotiate effectively, which is something that we're not socialized
31:11 here a lot to do.
31:12 Because we're socialized to be agreeable and smile, so when you come to spaces where lot
31:17 of men, you really have to be confident and you have to learn the art of negotiation because
31:22 the number of zeros always goes down.
31:24 I know as soon as I walk in, they decrease the zeros.
31:27 I have to make sure that I assert myself more so that my zeros comes back up to where it's
31:33 supposed to be.
31:34 These are all the different exchange.
31:35 And I think also there's the comparison and by society on if I'm fit enough for whatever
31:42 role I'm in.
31:43 What that means is that I'm a mother and a wife.
31:46 There'll be some people that will say to my husband, "How are you able to marry a woman
31:51 like this?"
31:52 Because I'm so confident and I have to be in my space.
31:53 Or they'll say, "How am I able to raise my daughter?"
31:57 Because I am chasing after my dreams and doing all sorts of things.
32:01 Those are all the different challenges.
32:04 And for me, I walk through them by building allies, identifying the gatekeepers of patriarchy
32:09 and seeing how we can work together, and making sure that we are empowering more women and
32:15 girls in the space, such that when people meet females in tech, it's not special, it's
32:20 just normal.
32:22 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Regina, for sharing your
32:28 story, and for sharing how you work, and how you are a role model, empowering girls and
32:34 women into STEM fields and more broadly in life.
32:38 Thank you for the story.
32:40 We will come back to you with some questions and we are also collecting questions through
32:44 the chat function.
32:45 Now, I'll turn to Leticia.
32:49 Leticia, evidence, as you know, shows that technical training, access to information
32:56 and education can enhance female entrepreneur's skills and knowledge and help facilitate their
33:02 transition to male dominated sectors.
33:05 In your experience, at CREA, what types of training do you find most effective to support
33:13 women entrepreneurs and how can we ensure the training programs meet the diverse needs
33:20 of women coming from different socioeconomic and educational backgrounds?
33:27 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] Thank you, Hana.
33:29 I'm very grateful and I'm proud to share this panel with you, with Regina, and Amalia.
33:34 This report is really illuminating.
33:36 It provides a necessary roadmap to ensure that women can prosper and thrive alongside
33:40 their male counterparts in any sector they choose, and I really congratulate the team
33:45 that worked so hard to bring it to life.
33:48 I've always been struck by how we're led to believe that some large companies are too
33:52 big to fail and that most micro and small enterprises are too small to succeed, especially
33:57 if they're led by women.
33:59 Throughout the years, CREA has been evaluating the impacts of its trainings and services
34:03 on the performance of these female entrepreneurs and we've seen that they actually do benefit
34:08 and can leverage these trainings to support themselves to grow, to access the necessary
34:15 resources they need to scale their businesses.
34:18 Most recently, we've seen preliminary results that show that after getting virtual training
34:22 around resilience, managerial and digital marketing skills, women that are trained are
34:28 almost twice as likely to legally register their brand with the authorities, for example.
34:33 We see that they do a lot more things to build businesses that can be a lot more sustainable
34:40 over time and eventually become more attractive for different types of financial services.
34:46 Over the last decades, we've seen some differences between necessity and opportunity entrepreneurs,
34:51 so between those that are forced to become entrepreneurs as a way to self-employ versus
34:55 those that are voluntarily choosing to start a business because they are able to identify
35:00 a good opportunity in the market and act on it.
35:04 But overall, I believe that what's made a very big difference for women that have gotten
35:09 training through CREA in how not only they manage the managerial digital and financial
35:15 skills, is training around soft skills and non-cognitive skills.
35:20 This is a type of training around socio-emotional skills that allows women to think outside
35:25 the box.
35:27 It's become a lot more relevant in a COVID-19 world, where most of the training became remote
35:33 and, in the future, it will still very likely be hybrid or blended.
35:38 What we in CREA include in this kind of training helps women think creatively and innovatively,
35:43 it helps them view the world as a positive somewhere world where collaboration and networks
35:48 can lead to improved results.
35:51 An example that I'd like to provide is the story of a woman who used to produce tamales.
35:57 She's from a town in Mexico where this is a traditional corn meal staple.
36:01 It's a type of food that we eat a lot in Mexico.
36:05 She faced a lot of competition from women in her town.
36:10 When she came to visit our office in Mexico City, she asked what people in our neighborhood
36:14 were called.
36:15 One of our colleagues said, "Oh, they're hipsters."
36:19 In line with what she had learned during these soft skills training sessions, she researched
36:24 what these hipsters liked than what they wanted, what they were purchasing.
36:27 She decided that she was not going to compete with the same product, with same type of traditional
36:34 tamale, but that she was going to differentiate her offering by making rice flour tamales
36:40 and vegan tamales.
36:41 She was going to flavor them with tea and other inputs that women from her network were
36:46 producing.
36:47 This helped her transform her business into a thriving one that grew to employ dozens
36:51 of women and that is now even exporting tamales.
36:54 It's just an example of how the combination of hard skills and these soft skills can really
37:00 allow women to integrate these, and differentiate their businesses, and scale.
37:06 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
37:10 You brought a very powerful illustration, how the combination of hard skills and soft
37:16 skills is important, and how the soft skills help women think creatively and take personal
37:23 initiative.
37:25 Let me now turn to Dr. Widyasanti.
37:27 Dr. Widyasanti, we are keen to hear your perspective as a policymaker.
37:33 In terms of policy, in your experience, why is it important to open up all sectors of
37:40 the economy to women?
37:42 And what are the costs for women, for men, for our societies and economy of gender based
37:50 sectors and occupational segregation?
37:52 Please tell us, what has been your experience in Indonesia?
37:57 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Thank you, Hana.
38:01 I would like to share my screen for a while.
38:08 As you know, based on studies, that there is actually mounting evidence around the globe
38:18 that promoting gender diversity among employees, management and boards can be a business boost,
38:25 and it could be also a boost to economies.
38:29 If you look at this, on the right chart, the growing number of studies have demonstrated
38:36 that there is a positive link between women's participation in the labor market and the
38:42 GDP growth.
38:43 I think this is a very good foundation that, actually, we need to really push the women
38:50 to really involve and contribute in economic activities in our country.
38:58 However, there are still some issues of the gender gap in the world.
39:03 For example, women in former employment by industries in selected Asian countries is
39:10 still low, and education levels for Indonesian women, for example, have been increasing,
39:16 but yet female labor participation stalled in 50% for the past 20 years, even though
39:25 the education levels for Indonesian women have been increasing and women participation
39:32 in education is also increasing.
39:33 Again, this is an issue that how actually the educated woman can really participate
39:41 in the labor market after their graduation is an issue.
39:49 Another important one is that disparities are observed within Asia and the Pacific.
39:59 Some countries have demonstrated wider gender gaps than others have.
40:03 There is also gender bias in segmentation of jobs.
40:07 For those in formal employment, such as real state, mining, quartering and water supply
40:14 sector are still under representation for women.
40:20 As a result, many women work in the informal sector, and therefore it caused a salary disparity
40:28 between genders across sectors.
40:31 With that, also there is a note from us that women's participation in STEM also declines
40:43 when they are entering the workforce.
40:46 Actually, when they are coming to the college, for example, the
40:57 pharmacy in the university, in the Department of Pharmacy, for example, most of the students
41:02 are women and most of the student in the Biology Department in the university are also women.
41:09 However, women's participation in the STEM workforce is actually still low.
41:16 For example, only two out of 10 professional workers and three out of 10 researchers are
41:25 women.
41:26 I think one of the reason is because there is still women gender stereotyping when they
41:37 are looking for job and women are less interested in STEM work or employment because of the
41:47 strong sentiment of male-dominated sectors.
41:50 Also, 45% of women say that they are less interested to work in STEM because of strong
41:58 sentiment of male domination.
41:59 I think this is actually the important issue that we have to tackle by really interfering
42:10 the policies.
42:12 I think I'll stop there, thank you.
42:20 [Hana Brixi] Dr. Widyasanti, thank you so much for sharing
42:28 the evidence and policy perspective from Indonesia.
42:33 I now would like to turn to our panelists with the second set of questions, including
42:39 questions from the audience.
42:41 In fact, Dr. Widyasanti, I would like to start with you, building on the presentation that
42:48 you shared, to ask you which policies you find most effective to support women entrepreneurs
42:57 in the near term, and which policies in your view are needed for the long term to support
43:04 the next generation of female entrepreneurs?
43:06 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Thank you, Hana.
43:09 I would like to provide the policy to support women entrepreneurs.
43:15 One is in the short term, and the second one is in a long term.
43:19 In the short term, the policy really needs to facilitate and support the development
43:27 of women friendly work environments, for the women.
43:34 The second one is that support women entrepreneurs to really connect to business associations
43:45 and business networks so it can really build the confidence of women.
43:50 The third one is incorporate women friendly approach, for example, that we can establish
44:00 the business development centers that provide consultancy to women who really would like
44:10 to be a good entrepreneur.
44:12 This is also very critical because, during the pandemic and also post pandemic, the digitalization
44:24 will be the key for the women entrepreneurs to really improve their productivity.
44:33 I think improving women skills in digitalization and digital technology will be very important,
44:42 such as improving or increasing women access to digital technology and also equip the women
44:54 to financial inclusion and financial technology.
44:58 For the long term, we really need to equip women by providing training courses, mentoring,
45:12 to develop entrepreneurship skill of the women.
45:19 The second one is to facilitate businesswomen to access markets by working with the government
45:28 and the private sectors.
45:29 The third one is to promote work life balance of the women who really become the entrepreneurs.
45:44 Promoting work life balance is very important so women with dual responsibilities can make
45:51 a balance between working and the family and also provide a greater access of women to
45:59 social protection.
46:00 Thank you, Hana.
46:02 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Dr. Widyasanti, for this
46:07 illustration of effective policies, including improving market access for women, building
46:14 entrepreneurship skills, enhancing digital inclusion and the financial inclusions, all
46:21 these important areas where policies have been very much following and building on the
46:27 evidence that is available.
46:30 Now, thinking of financial inclusion, I would like now to turn to Leticia.
46:34 Thinking about how evidence shows that male dominated sectors usually have higher capital
46:42 requirements.
46:44 In your experience, Leticia, what works to address the capital needs of female entrepreneurs,
46:52 and what could the entrepreneur, the private sector, development partners, and other stakeholders
46:58 do to improve the access to finance for women entrepreneurs?
47:05 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] The COVID-19 pandemic, I think, made it even
47:09 more evident that the economic autonomy of women is at risk due to a large percentage
47:14 of them being unemployed, underemployed, or employed in informal markets because of the
47:19 digital gender gap and due to low access to financial services.
47:22 I think no matter what kind of female entrepreneur we're looking at, be it those launching tech
47:27 startups, impact entrepreneurs, or female entrepreneurs with migrant small businesses,
47:32 they're all facing funding challenges and limitations in access to finance.
47:37 For example, in the case of Mexico, less than 11% of migrant small enterprises led by women
47:42 receive loans from financial institutions, and when they do receive them, those tend
47:47 to be a lot smaller than loans for male counterparts.
47:50 Markus already talked about the lack of access to collateral for most women and that's one
47:55 reason or example of why they have limitations in accessing this type of financial support.
48:01 But there's other sociocultural aspect that prevent women from accessing financial products,
48:06 be it because they don't feel comfortable going into those institutions, they have a
48:12 history of not being able to access them or being turned away.
48:18 There's a lot of challenges in how the businesses are structured and whether they have the right
48:22 kind of documentation and that sort of thing.
48:25 But it's very exciting to hear the type of policies that are going to be supported in
48:28 the short term, in the case of Indonesia, for example, as was mentioned by Madam Deputy
48:32 Minister.
48:33 I believe that, first and foremost, the private and public sectors could and should be collaborating
48:39 by creating incentives for individuals and organizations to invest in women owned enterprises.
48:44 In the case of migrant small enterprises, that means creating incentives for tailored
48:48 financial services for social capital, for impact investing.
48:52 It also means modernizing existing government guarantee grant and loan programs that can
48:58 support women entrepreneurs to compete in a changing environment that's also seeing
49:04 new types of investment models arise.
49:07 And it means creating new sources of capital by incentivizing crowdfunding-investing models,
49:12 for example, and other types of investment that are fiscally accessible for a lot more
49:17 people.
49:18 But as it also has been highlighted, it's not just about creating or boosting the offerings
49:23 on the financial side, it's also about strengthening the women's positions by supporting them in
49:28 accessing value chains and providing incentives for minority or diverse suppliers, regardless
49:33 of their size, for example.
49:35 It means supporting training in the digital economy for female entrepreneurs, similar
49:39 to what Regina is doing at Soronko Academy.
49:42 In order for that to happen, it means we need to provide access to connectivity, kind of
49:45 nationally in all of these countries.
49:49 It means providing financial and fiscal support for women to access business support services,
49:54 continuing education and training programs, as well as networks.
49:57 And in order to do that, it means we need to change the care systems to provide them
50:04 with access to longer school days, to childcare services, to many other services, because
50:12 otherwise one thing in isolation is not going to improve the ability for the women to access
50:18 that financial support, or they may be able to access the financial support, but they
50:23 won't be able to deliver the same kind of results that they could deliver if they had
50:28 access to the rest of the infrastructure and systems in place in order for them to be able
50:33 to grow successfully and compete, not only in male dominated sectors, but across the
50:39 economy in any way they decide to do so as entrepreneurs, as employees or even as students,
50:48 etcetera.
50:49 I think promoting access to financial instruments, markets, resiliency is a combination and an
50:55 ecosystem of factors that will allow these women to grow.
50:59 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
51:03 And I very much appreciate your emphasis on the partnership and alignment between the
51:07 public sector and the private sector to support incentives to address the needs of women.
51:13 And the fact that the alignment needs to cut across a number of areas from financing to
51:20 digital, to care services and so on to address the complex challenges that women entrepreneurs
51:26 face.
51:27 Now, I would like now to turn to Regina.
51:30 In fact, building on what Leticia was just discussing, we have received a question from
51:35 the audience about your experience as a CEO setting up your own business.
51:43 What kind of barriers you found or you experienced in getting financial support to grow your
51:50 business and the kind of barriers that you think that men would not face?
51:56 [Regina Honu] That's a very interesting question.
52:01 I just want to say what Leticia and the Deputy Minister said are all very [inaudible] and
52:07 I'm glad that we could have all those insights in the conversation.
52:10 When I was starting my business, I would say one of my early on barriers was not having
52:16 enough access to the right information, not having access to mentors to guide me through
52:24 the process.
52:25 Also, simply not knowing how to present well and understanding the financials between setting
52:29 up a sustainable business.
52:31 I would say early on in the beginning, and it wasn't something that was in my socialization.
52:36 I came into the space with an idea, but not enough of the technical know-how in terms
52:44 of how you set up a business.
52:45 So that was the first thing.
52:47 I had to take some time to understand what are the legal, the regulatory frameworks that
52:51 are required.
52:52 And there wasn't a lot of information at one place.
52:54 In my country, for example, you had to go to different regulatory bodies.
52:59 So getting started was an uphill battle because first you even needed to figure out where
53:07 do you have to go.
53:08 When it came to time for funding and presenting my business, I had to make a very strong case.
53:15 When I initially decided to present a model such as teaching women and girls coding, there
53:21 was an initial sort of backlash.
53:24 As in, it wouldn't work, they wouldn't get it, it was too early at its time.
53:29 But I had to really sort of pilot.
53:32 I used my own capital to do a proof of concept.
53:35 I would advise that it's good when funders see some self-investment into the idea to
53:41 see that you've put in some work.
53:43 I didn't go in just with the idea, I did some research.
53:47 I did some markets research also, because I wanted to go in with some insights.
53:51 I didn't want to come in into the space not really understanding what was happening on
53:56 the ground.
53:57 I also did some market research.
53:59 Then I presented a picture of where we were and where we could be going.
54:06 I think also the other challenge for me was getting over the self-doubt.
54:12 I say this because we hear this from a lot of female entrepreneurs.
54:15 It's like, they suffer this imposter syndrome, or they're afraid that they're not able to
54:20 meet whatever expectation is out there.
54:22 For me, I had to mute the voice that kept telling me I'm not able, I'm not going to
54:28 do well.
54:29 I'm going to fail.
54:30 Also, mute the voice of others that kept telling me, "Why don't you go into safer spaces?"
54:36 That's what they would say.
54:37 "Why don't you try something that you are more suited for?"
54:40 Whatever that may mean.
54:41 For me, technology is something that I love, that I'm passionate about.
54:45 Those were all the different challenges.
54:47 Another challenge which I have to add on is as soon as I started getting more successful
54:52 in my space, and I was climbing on into areas where the funding, the number of zeros was
54:58 getting up, I had to prove myself more even though I had a track record.
55:03 I was still coming in against opposition even though I had demonstrated that I could do
55:07 it.
55:08 But there was still a little bit of, “Can you show us a little bit of what you can do?”
55:14 Even though I've been doing it a lot.
55:18 Also, like I always say, you need mentors and you need allies.
55:19 Sometimes it is good to go into the space with maybe other men or other successful women
55:25 who have built a network, understand all those inner workings to get you off those hurdles.
55:30 I would definitely recommend mentors.
55:31 I would definitely recommend allies, and I would definitely recommend muting self-doubt.
55:38 [Hana Brixi] Thank you, Regina.
55:42 Again, you highlighted how the traditional norms are contributing to the many challenges
55:48 that women face.
55:51 I would like, actually, to build on your response and ask you another question.
55:55 That is how can role models and mentors help break traditional norms and serve as gate-openers
56:02 for women entrepreneurs to transition to male dominated sectors?
56:07 Specifically, what lessons do you have from your social initiative at the Soronko Academy?
56:16 Maybe a follow up question also, how can we engage men to help make male-dominated sectors
56:22 more inclusive?
56:23 [Regina Honu] Thank you very much.
56:25 I would start by even saying this conversation I'm having right now with Leticia and the
56:32 doctor is very inspiring.
56:33 I'm leaving with two role models that I'm looking at.
56:36 It's great to see such inspiring women and to hear from them.
56:41 Role models really show you that it's possible, especially in communities where you see women
56:46 are limited by the agenda.
56:49 This is what we come up against with the women that we engage with.
56:51 They come from communities where their mothers, their grandmothers did the same thing, and
56:56 it was very limiting.
56:58 To them, their aspiration is defined by their community.
57:01 So it's important that they see women that are breaking the mold, that have shattered
57:06 the glass ceiling, that are hopefully destroying the glass walls to show that it's possible.
57:11 It's also great that the young girls can see and have people to aspire.
57:17 For me, I didn't have a lot of female mentors when I was coming up, but now I have a whole
57:24 tribe, a whole army.
57:26 And I think that is important.
57:28 To answer your other question about learnings from training women and girls, especially
57:32 in digital, is you first have to work on that mindset that they're not good enough to come
57:38 into the spaces.
57:39 When the women unlock that potential, what they're able to do is really mind blowing.
57:44 We've had a woman come from doing nothing to now building a mobile app company and making
57:51 a lot of money.
57:52 Or we've had a young girl who felt that she wasn't going to be good in technology building
57:57 a really great app and then being a really great role model to others.
58:02 So it's really seeing that digital is not something that is gender specific.
58:06 The other question that you ask about how do we get men involved, I think we need to
58:13 have more conversations with the men in the room.
58:16 I see that each time we start to talk about gender, it's like it's filled with women,
58:20 we're speaking to the converted.
58:22 We run a program targeted at teaching our trainers across the country how to be gender
58:30 intentional.
58:31 Mostly, the trainers are men, unfortunately.
58:32 When you go across and you're looking for a lot of trainers.
58:38 And one thing we realize from having these conversations with the men is sometimes they're
58:42 unaware of the situations and the challenges, even though we think that we've been talking
58:48 a lot to them.
58:49 Sometimes, because they're excluded from the conversations, they're really unaware of the
58:54 issues.
58:55 In other times, they come up against a lot of sort of… the women will come up with
59:01 a lot of sort of anger with how they've been left behind.
59:02 For the men, they feel like they need to protect their territory.
59:07 They're scared of the world where women are empowered, where they lose their opposition.
59:12 We have to help them understand that is not what is going to happen.
59:19 It's better if we work together.
59:21 Innovation thrives with diversity, two perspectives.
59:23 It's important that we start talking to the men.
59:25 It's important that we get the men involved where we've seen women thrive in businesses
59:29 like it says in the reports, spousal support.
59:33 Having a male, their fathers, or uncles or brothers help them.
59:36 It's important that we really task the men to help us because when women win, we all
59:42 win.
59:43 That would be my feedback.
59:46 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Regina.
59:49 Indeed, you highlighted the importance to involve men in the solutions.
59:54 In this direction of thinking and discussion, I now would like to turn to Leticia with a
01:00:01 question we just received from the audience.
01:00:04 Where we are proposing a model that leads to a greater gender balance in sectors.
01:00:11 And that means not only more women in male-dominated sectors, but also more men in female dominated
01:00:17 sectors.
01:00:19 Should we promote men transition to female dominated sectors and how, Leticia?
01:00:26 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] This is a great question.
01:00:30 And I think it's very much related to what Regina was mentioning.
01:00:33 There has to be kind of that exchange.
01:00:36 And when we think about feminism, it means talking about men and women.
01:00:41 It doesn't just go one way and we need both men and women to be involved.
01:00:44 There are similar barriers and challenges for men trying to break into traditionally
01:00:49 female sectors.
01:00:50 They are very stigmatized.
01:00:53 There's a lot of pushback.
01:00:55 We also see that kind of pushback when men are taking paternal leaves now that a lot
01:01:01 of companies are including that as part of the support to men and women being co-responsible
01:01:08 in how they care for children, for example.
01:01:11 What we see is there's a lot of pressure for men not to take it.
01:01:14 And when they do, they are sometimes ostracized or pushed aside because it's considered that
01:01:19 it wasn't, quote, unquote, manly, or it was just there as a policy, but not to be used.
01:01:26 There's incredible cases of male nurses.
01:01:30 That's one of the professions, for example, where traditionally, if we think of a doctor,
01:01:33 we think of a man.
01:01:34 If we think of a nurse, we think of a woman.
01:01:38 There are a lot of programs that need to allow for anyone to participate in the type of profession
01:01:45 or entrepreneurial sector that they want.
01:01:48 I wanted to add another perspective to what Regina was saying, because I truly believe
01:01:56 that mentorship has allowed me to get to where I am, but there is a role for men to play
01:02:02 in the case of sponsorship.
01:02:04 Given that so many more men are in leadership positions and that women have to break through
01:02:10 those glass ceilings, there is an opportunity for men to not just mentor women, but actually
01:02:16 sponsor them so that they can get access to different kinds of funding.
01:02:20 That they can get access to new networks.
01:02:23 I think sometimes we forget about this additional component that goes beyond providing advice
01:02:29 and guidance, and actually means that you're going to put skin in the game.
01:02:32 And you're really going to put your reputation behind a woman.
01:02:37 The same could happen for these men that are trying to break into what are considered female
01:02:42 led sectors and for women to sponsor those men and to create and craft those opportunities.
01:02:50 I just wanted to say that because I think it's made a big difference in how women can
01:02:55 break through in some sectors where otherwise it would've been very complicated and some
01:02:59 men have been those types of sponsors and have created that type of opportunity.
01:03:04 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
01:03:08 You also very nicely illustrated that there is truly a win-win for women and men when
01:03:14 there is a better gender balance in sectors and in professions.
01:03:19 I now would like to, again, coming back to policies and what the government can do and
01:03:26 has been doing.
01:03:27 I would like to turn again to Dr. Widyasanti.
01:03:30 Dr. Widyasanti, considering women entrepreneurs who already crossed over to the male-dominated
01:03:39 sectors and the kind of unique challenges that they face in seeking success, what policies
01:03:46 and programs, in your experience, help female entrepreneurs to succeed in male dominated
01:03:55 sectors once they are there, once they successfully move into these sectors?
01:04:00 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] First of all, I would like to say that when
01:04:05 we are trying to convince women that they are able to cross to the male-dominated sectors,
01:04:15 then it is a good start for women to make them confidence to work in the male-dominated
01:04:24 sectors.
01:04:25 But the second one is that, also, we have to educate not only the women themselves,
01:04:31 but also the men themselves.
01:04:34 Where we have to open up the eyes of men in the men-dominated sectors that, actually,
01:04:41 they have to welcome women, their women colleagues, and women who would like to work in the male-dominated
01:04:51 sectors.
01:04:52 I think this is very important because once the male colleagues really open their minds
01:04:59 and also they welcome the women to work with them in the male-dominated sectors, then this
01:05:08 is really can upgrade the women to put their achievement and they can optimize their skills
01:05:19 and their achievement to achieve the success of the women in that male-dominated sectors.
01:05:27 I think this is a very important issue because it is to really break down the stereotyping
01:05:34 of women in that sectors and disseminate and also… the policies to open up male perception
01:05:47 is very important.
01:05:50 The third one is that we need also really to provide infrastructure for women to be
01:06:00 able to work in male-dominated sectors, for example, a childcare facility.
01:06:12 The other one is a breastfeeding facility.
01:06:18 So women with young children can still come to the workplace.
01:06:27 [Hana Brixi] Dr. Widyasanti, it looks like the connection
01:06:40 has dropped, but thank you for the important points that you made and the illustrations
01:06:46 about the policies and public investments that help women once they cross over in the
01:06:56 male-dominated sectors, and overall in entrepreneurship.
01:06:59 But you also illustrated that it is not only about top down policies and programs, but
01:07:04 it is also about changing the mindsets of men as well as women.
01:07:12 In that context, I would like to ask you and also ask Regina and Leticia about your perspective
01:07:18 on partnerships.
01:07:20 What kind of partnerships you find effective in your work as policymaker or as entrepreneur?
01:07:27 Specifically, if you have any reflections also on how international development partners
01:07:35 can support the efforts to empower female entrepreneurs and their success in male-dominated
01:07:44 sector.
01:07:45 So Dr. Widyasanti, back to you with this question.
01:07:48 Dr. Widyasanti, we cannot hear you.
01:07:53 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Partnership in the workplace is very important
01:07:58 because I feel that, also, I work in quite male-dominated education program and also
01:08:09 most of the level that I'm now is also a male-dominated position.
01:08:19 I think one of the important ones that we really need to show to our male colleagues
01:08:28 that women, when working, can also work professionally.
01:08:33 I think this is one way that we can really make our male colleagues confidence for women
01:08:43 to work together with them.
01:08:45 I think this is also important for the women.
01:08:49 That we can work together partnering with our male colleagues so they are confident
01:08:56 to work with us because they know that we can work professionally with them.
01:09:01 [Hana Brixi] Regina, the same question to you.
01:09:06 How do you see effective partnerships to address the challenges facing women in entering male
01:09:14 dominated sectors and succeeding in these sectors?
01:09:17 [Regina Honu] One of the things that I've seen that I've
01:09:21 worked in terms of partnerships is setting up setting culture systems.
01:09:27 For example, in my country, within the startup ecosystem for tech startups, there was a point
01:09:32 where funders were looking for businesses that had at least one female co-founder or
01:09:38 had at least a certain percentage of females that worked in the business.
01:09:42 That was an incentive for a lot of tech startups to be intentional about getting women on board
01:09:48 and into their teams.
01:09:50 We saw more women as either the co-founder or working in a technical role.
01:09:57 That is one.
01:09:58 The other one is being intentional about getting corporates to really look at how are they
01:10:04 doing when it comes to the gender dynamics in their organizations, how are they doing
01:10:08 when it comes to gender in the board positions, how are they doing when it comes to gender
01:10:13 in the decision-making process.
01:10:16 So we really have to get even corporate organizations, public institutions to look at how can they
01:10:22 be intentional about getting more women.
01:10:24 And then we'll see these types of partnerships will definitely work.
01:10:27 But I think there definitely needs to be a more of a push to get more women into these
01:10:34 male dominated [inaudible].
01:10:36 [Hana Brixi] Very good point on the need to have push as
01:10:39 well as pool to have more women in male-dominated sectors and succeed in these sectors.
01:10:47 Let me now turn with the same question to Leticia.
01:10:49 Leticia, from your perspective, what kind of partnerships you find effective in supporting
01:10:56 female entrepreneurs in male-dominated sectors?
01:10:58 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] Thank you, Hana.
01:11:00 And I love this kind of push and pull, because I think when we think about diversity, we
01:11:05 also need to think about inclusion.
01:11:06 That push and pull, and making sure that it's not just diverse, but they're also having
01:11:12 a voice and participation.
01:11:14 In the case of CREA I think everything we've been able to do has been through partnerships.
01:11:20 It's essential to partner with government and public institutions because they are the
01:11:24 ones that have the ability to provide access to all populations.
01:11:29 They have the ability to really influence and change legislations and policies.
01:11:35 What we can provide in a lot of cases is data about how to vocalize that type of support,
01:11:41 where it can be most effective and have evidence of how that investment can turn into economic
01:11:47 development.
01:11:48 We've had incredible partnerships with international organizations such as the World Bank around
01:11:52 impact evaluation, and being able to very rigorously measure the type of impact that
01:11:58 we want to have.
01:11:59 And that in turn gives us evidence and data that we can use with private sector partners
01:12:05 to gather the type of support, be it funding, resources, or access to new networks, that
01:12:10 can allow us to grow.
01:12:12 Then, finally, I think the word that Regina used is perfect.
01:12:16 How do we build a tribe of support around the women that we work with, around our own
01:12:22 needs as entrepreneurs, to be able to scale effectively and to be able to then pay it
01:12:29 forward to others that need us in their network and that need this kind of support?
01:12:34 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia.
01:12:38 We now have the final five minutes for this panel before we turn to Ms. Mamta Murthi,
01:12:47 Vice President for Human Development, for concluding remarks.
01:12:51 I just would like to ask a final question to each of you for a brief reflection, and
01:12:58 that is when you look into the future, you look for the next 10 years.
01:13:05 What should be our aspiration, as a global community, when it comes to female entrepreneurs
01:13:15 or, more broadly, women's economic empowerment?
01:13:19 And what solution or what approach you think would be most effective or most critical to
01:13:30 take on the way forward, to make a difference in the next 10 years?
01:13:36 Let me perhaps start with Regina.
01:13:39 [Regina Honu] For me, we definitely need more digital skills.
01:13:46 Women need to be equipped with the digital skills to be able to take advantage in whatever
01:13:53 industry that they find themselves.
01:13:55 Digital is always an enabler and sets you apart.
01:13:59 I am inspired by the work of initiatives such as the Women Entrepreneurs in Finance initiative
01:14:04 that's housed by the World Bank that is intentional about getting funding to more women entrepreneurs.
01:14:10 We need to see also more funding.
01:14:12 I think women are over mentored a little bit when it comes to entrepreneurship and not
01:14:17 funded as much.
01:14:18 We need to really close the funding gap.
01:14:22 And the last piece is we really need to showcase positive stories.
01:14:25 I think there are lots of amazing women doing our amazing work and it's time that we highlight
01:14:30 those women.
01:14:31 It's time that we normalize breaking glass ceilings and women don't feel like they're
01:14:36 alone on that path.
01:14:38 [Hana Brixi] Thank you, Regina.
01:14:41 I'm delighted.
01:14:42 In fact, in this discussion we have an opportunity to highlight such wonderful success stories
01:14:49 in embedded in ourselves, in our speakers.
01:14:53 Let me now turn to Leticia.
01:14:55 Same question, the aspiration and how to get there.
01:14:58 [Leticia Jauregui Casanueva] Thank you, Hana.
01:15:00 I think that's an ambitious question.
01:15:03 Something that you mentioned or alluded to earlier is having the possibility of not treating
01:15:12 women as a monolith.
01:15:14 I think one of the pending things is to really highlight the diversity of roles, leadership
01:15:20 positions, and success stories that exist across women.
01:15:23 And this is a report that highlights something that is a lot of times invisibilized: women
01:15:28 that are in male-dominated sectors, not just women that are doing incredible things where
01:15:33 we expect them to be, those incredible success stories.
01:15:38 One, I would say, really highlighting the diversity of success stories that we have
01:15:43 for women and sharing these role models across the board, so that any child, whether they
01:15:50 be a boy, girl, or anything they want to be, can get inspired and decide where they want
01:15:56 to grow into in the future.
01:15:58 And the second piece, in addition to everything that Regina said, is getting women into the
01:16:05 decision making positions so that the funding is available, so that digital skills and technological
01:16:11 opportunities are open, so that companies have a balanced culture and a positive culture
01:16:17 for women from the board to leadership position, and same in government, so that we have female
01:16:23 representatives such as Madam Deputy Minister that can inspire us to believe that we can
01:16:30 and will be developing in any sector that we want.
01:16:34 [Hana Brixi] Thank you so much, Leticia, and thank you
01:16:38 for highlighting the power of success stories and the value added of women's leadership,
01:16:45 of women's participation in decision-making.
01:16:48 Dr. Widyasanti, what is your take?
01:16:51 What is the aspiration and how to get there?
01:16:54 [Amalia Adininggar Widyasanti] Actually, we need to improve.
01:16:58 Life learning is very important for the women, so don't stop learning, because by life learning
01:17:07 means that we can always keep up with the opportunity and we can keep up with the new
01:17:15 technology and new opportunity.
01:17:19 Women have to do life learning throughout their lives.
01:17:24 The second one is that women have to improve their skills in building networking, because
01:17:32 by building the networking, we can help each other to promote, to be a higher position
01:17:40 for one another.
01:17:41 So women can be stronger to build their community and build stronger together in improving the
01:17:51 position of women to the important decision making process.
01:17:55 I think this is very important for women to be greater in the future.
01:18:00 [Hana Brixi] Excellent.
01:18:03 Thank you so much, Dr. Widyasanti, and I think your final remarks illustrate that, indeed,
01:18:10 action is needed on all fronts, from policies, programs, private sector, community, including
01:18:17 men, but also women to continue learning, and build their network, and have the audacity
01:18:23 to succeed.
01:18:24 With that, let me thank our distinguished panelists.
01:18:29 Thank you, Regina.
01:18:31 Thank you, Leticia.
01:18:32 Thank you, Dr. Widyasanti.
01:18:33 This has been a fascinating discussion and we very much look forward to continuing the
01:18:38 discussion, and continuing the collaboration, and continuing showcasing and drawing lessons
01:18:43 from the success stories that also each of you have shared.
01:18:48 I now would like to turn to Miss Mamta Murthi, Vice President for Human Development at the
01:18:55 World Bank, and invite Mamta to share her closing remarks.
01:19:02 Mamta, over to you.
01:19:03 [Mamta Murthi] Thank you very much, Hana, and thank you to
01:19:07 our distinguished panelists, and to Markus, Naira and the whole team that wrote the report.
01:19:15 I like to present myself as a little bit of a crossover, somebody who has moved into a
01:19:21 male dominated sector.
01:19:23 I'm an economist, and I quickly did a Google search, and one of the sites that I hit upon
01:19:29 said that 74% of economists in the world are men.
01:19:34 I've moved into a male dominated sector.
01:19:39 What each of you said really resonated with me.
01:19:43 Regina, I think it was you who said that we all need to inspire each other, and Leticia,
01:19:51 you said we need to be a tribe of successful women, and Dr. Widyasanti, you said we are
01:19:59 stronger together.
01:20:02 To me, to conclude based on the remarks that have been made at this panel, and reflecting
01:20:08 on the study, I think I'm drawing inspiration from what each of you has said.
01:20:17 First, just let me comment on some of the things that I heard which I found very inspiring
01:20:26 and I think we should reflect on as we go about our work.
01:20:31 Makhtar began by making us go through this thought exercise of what constitutes a man's
01:20:40 work and what constitutes a woman's work.
01:20:42 And he made the forceful case, that we have preconceptions, and this is often the root
01:20:49 cause of this “profitarchy”, as he called it, or gendered hierarchy of profits across
01:20:57 sectors.
01:20:58 I think this is something we should reflect on to begin changing in our own life and in
01:21:03 the work that we do, some of the norms that we operate under, mental norms that we operate
01:21:09 under.
01:21:11 Markus then made an excellent presentation of the Breaking Barriers report, and this,
01:21:16 of course, was complimented by the insights from all our panelists.
01:21:21 In Regina's remark, Regina is the CEO of the Soronko Academy, she described the five-second
01:21:30 shock reaction when she walks into a room, a male-dominated room, which typically drops
01:21:38 a zero when they see her.
01:21:40 Leticia, you talked about the importance of social, emotional skills.
01:21:45 That's very important.
01:21:48 These are not skills that tend to be emphasized, but they're very important for growing businesses.
01:21:53 Dr. Widyasanti, you highlighted the need for women, not only to obtain STEM degrees and
01:22:00 STEM skills, but also to pursue STEM fields.
01:22:04 All of these were very striking to me because they reaffirm in my mind some of the work
01:22:11 that we are doing in Human Development to support women and women entrepreneurs to move
01:22:18 into male dominated sectors.
01:22:21 Reports like the one that we launched today are a part of the analytical toolbox that
01:22:26 we have, and we use this analysis to support programs and have policy dialogue with countries
01:22:33 so that we can make an attempt to move the needle, or make a nudge that moves the needle,
01:22:40 and helps women acquire the skills, and enter sectors where they can be more productive,
01:22:45 helping themselves, their families, and of course, the economy.
01:22:51 I also want to say that, in the work of the World Bank, we try and start early.
01:22:56 We are pursuing some of these ideas not just at the post-secondary stage.
01:23:03 We try and pursue them at the secondary school level.
01:23:07 Our very successful SWEDD program focuses on providing skills and changing the mindset
01:23:12 of adolescent girls so that this process can begin early in life.
01:23:18 I want to touch upon some of the recurring themes in the discussion, all of which resonated
01:23:26 with me.
01:23:28 We talked about training, mentorship and building entrepreneurship skills amongst women, supporting
01:23:34 women to access markets and connect to other women entrepreneurs through business associations
01:23:40 and networks, linking women to role models and information.
01:23:45 Markus gave an excellent example from the study on the role of information in supporting
01:23:52 career choice.
01:23:55 We talked about the importance of access to finance, so the need for loans, grants, and
01:24:00 other ways of reaching women who do not have access to financial resources for entrepreneurship.
01:24:09 The collaboration between the public and the private sector, the role of care infrastructure,
01:24:15 the role of social norms.
01:24:16 All of these were highlighted and I think they are helping to enrich the way we, as
01:24:24 the World Bank, think about the work that we do in supporting change in female participation
01:24:34 and female entrepreneurship in male dominated sectors.
01:24:38 Now, I want to have two further reflections.
01:24:43 Although today's discussion focused on female entrepreneurship, because the Breaking Barriers
01:24:48 book is about female entrepreneurship; obviously, the issue of occupational segregation is broader
01:24:55 than entrepreneurship, and in fact, in the panel discussion, I noticed that both issues
01:25:02 were discussed: entrepreneurship, as well as female participation in male-dominated
01:25:10 sectors.
01:25:12 I very much want to underline the point that was made about the unfulfilled potential of
01:25:17 people, and of economies, by locking people out of certain sectors.
01:25:23 As we think about the underlying causes of occupational segregation, it's very important
01:25:31 to recognize that this starts early in life and accumulates over time, and that is why
01:25:37 early interventions are very important.
01:25:40 Here, I would like to say that, as the World Bank, we focus a fair bit on these early interventions.
01:25:50 We focus on secondary school, tertiary education.
01:25:56 We focus on skills and entrepreneurship training.
01:26:01 We think very carefully and have policy dialogue around the barriers that women have to access
01:26:11 in finance.
01:26:12 Each of these are early interventions in their own way.
01:26:16 We also focus on the care infrastructure, which is extremely important in supporting
01:26:21 female labor force participation.
01:26:25 I want to say that some of the research that has been undertaken
01:26:33 in the Breaking Barriers book, we are very happy is going to help us expand programs
01:26:42 that are having results.
01:26:46 Markus spoke about the program in the Republic of Congo, where we have learned that women
01:26:56 are more likely to apply for vocational training in male-dominated sectors when they receive
01:27:02 information about the prospects of these sectors.
01:27:06 I'm very happy to say that, based on these findings; we are proposing to go forward with
01:27:12 additional resources and additional financing which will aim to reach seven and a half thousand
01:27:18 additional women with this information on sector specific earnings to nudge further
01:27:25 the decision to go into a male-dominated sector.
01:27:28 Of course, we are aware that a result that you see in a small scale may not necessarily
01:27:35 translate as you try to scale up.
01:27:38 This is something that we will continue to research and observe to make sure that we
01:27:44 learn from the experience of taking something from a small scale to a larger scale so that
01:27:52 we can improve upon it and provide advice, not just in the Republic of Congo, but elsewhere.
01:28:00 Finally, I'm going to conclude with two remarks.
01:28:06 This is a year when we are coming to the end of gender strategy.
01:28:12 We are in the process of developing a new gender action plan.
01:28:16 Events such as this one and the launch of the report like Breaking Barriers, is an opportunity
01:28:23 for us to reflect on what have we learned as an institution on what works in promoting
01:28:30 gender equality.
01:28:34 Because we're in this process of thinking about what are the areas that the World Bank
01:28:38 should focus on next, I really welcome your participation and all those who are participating
01:28:44 via the chat function.
01:28:45 I really welcome this because it's pushing us to think, to refine our thoughts further,
01:28:51 and to develop more and better programs, and provide better policy advice to governments
01:29:00 on how to improve female participation in male dominated sectors and how to accelerate
01:29:06 equality.
01:29:08 That's just to place this event in the context of this yearlong effort that we have, to think
01:29:15 about our action plan for the coming years.
01:29:20 The last point I want to make is that, and I don't want to lose the specific focus of
01:29:25 today's report launch, we really are committed to ensuring that women entrepreneurs can imagine
01:29:34 male-dominated sectors.
01:29:36 And in our view, this goes beyond breaking the walls to the side, the glass walls, as
01:29:45 Markus described.
01:29:47 It also requires breaking of the glass ceiling.
01:29:51 We are very aware that issues of harassment and discrimination in male dominated workspaces
01:29:57 are a factor that holds women back.
01:30:00 That's another area on which we intend to continue to focus and continue to engage so
01:30:05 that we can understand better the role that institutions like ourselves can play in helping
01:30:12 reduce harassment and discrimination.
01:30:14 With that, I want to thank you very much for your engagement.
01:30:19 It's been a terrific hour and a half.
01:30:23 I hope you all believe that it's been very well spent, and please do continue to engage
01:30:28 with us, continue to send us your suggestions as we work both on our strategy and action
01:30:34 plan for the coming years, but also as we work on supporting more female entrepreneurs
01:30:40 in male dominated sectors.
01:30:41 With that, thank you.
01:30:42 I'm going to hand it back to you, Hana.
01:30:46 [Hana Brixi] Thank you very much, Mamta.
01:30:50 Thank you for your concluding remark highlighting how important the discussion today has been
01:30:56 and will be for the future, including informing what the World Bank is doing, how the World
01:31:01 Bank is engaging, and what will come into the new action plan, and also the importance
01:31:08 of the report, of evidence to inform policy change and further change on the way forward.
01:31:14 I also would like to thank, again, Markus, Naira and the team that developed the report
01:31:20 and presented evidence to inform and inspire further change and interventions.
01:31:25 I would like also thank to Makhtar for the opening remarks, our distinguished panelists,
01:31:32 Regina, Leticia, and Dr. Widyasanti.
01:31:35 Thank you again for sharing your perspectives, your insights, and your own success stories
01:31:42 as role models.
01:31:44 Finally, I would like to thank our audience for your active participation and we are very
01:31:49 much looking forward to continuing the discussion and collaboration on the way forward.
01:31:55 Thank you.
01:31:56 And all the best from all of us.

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