Coronavirus Live Series: How can we Reduce the Risk of Corruption during the Pandemic Response?
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Coronavirus Live Series: How can we Reduce the Risk of Corruption during the Pandemic Response?
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- 00:06 [Srimathi Sridhar] Good morning, everyone and welcome to
- 00:08 World Bank Live. I'm Srimathi Sridhar with the World Bank and over the next half hour or so,
- 00:12 we've got a great conversation for you on the role of government and the state as they take the lead
- 00:17 in responding to the COVID-19 pandemic. We'll be asking what are the challenges and pressures
- 00:22 governments are facing as they cope with the pandemic and what can be done to help them
- 00:26 function in these difficult times. Now, as they look to respond efficiently, they also face the
- 00:31 added threat of corruption. With the pandemic requiring a massive response by governments,
- 00:36 opportunities for corruption are on the rise. So how best can governments tackle corruption
- 00:41 and ensure integrity in these tough times? To talk about this and more, I'm delighted to be
- 00:47 joined by Ed Olowo-Okere. He is the director of the Governance Global Practice here at the
- 00:52 World Bank. Ed, welcome. [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 00:54 Thank you Sri. [Srimathi Sridhar]
- 00:56 So Ed, let's kick things off. Take me back to the basics here as we talk about government
- 01:01 and their key role in responding to the pandemic on a global scale. It might be obvious to some,
- 01:07 but let's put it on record. Why are governments so important right now and how so?
- 01:12 [Ed Olowo-Okere] Thanks Sri. I think it all begins with the
- 01:16 nature of the pandemic. The pandemic poses serious public health and safety issues. As we have seen
- 01:25 in the many hundreds of thousands of lives that have already been lost and millions of people that
- 01:31 have been infected across the globe, governments really need to take emergency health response to
- 01:40 save lives. Citizens do expect that from their governments. As we are also seeing in many
- 01:48 countries, the containment measures that have been introduced, like the lockdown, social distancing
- 01:56 measures, shutdown of borders. These are really actions that can only be taken by a government.
- 02:02 Now, when you look at some of the containment measures, they're also having some ripple effects,
- 02:08 on all sorts of businesses. If you look at this ripple effect, then they also require some kind
- 02:17 of economic response, and only governments are capable of doing that. Then on top of that,
- 02:22 to be able to do all of this respond, it requires a lot of coordination. Coordination across levels
- 02:30 of governments, coordination within governments and coordination with citizens and with private
- 02:36 sector actors. I mean, these are proposals that only governments are best placed to lead.
- 02:42 [Srimathi Sridhar] Absolutely. All these things that you mentioned,
- 02:46 these are all tall tasks, of course, but explain to us why have some governments found it more
- 02:51 difficult to respond? [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 02:54 I think let's begin with acknowledging one very important fact. This crisis is of an unimaginable
- 03:03 proportion that many governments could hardly have foreseen these 12 months ago and prepared
- 03:10 adequately in advance. With that thinking, countries with weak public institutions,
- 03:18 poor coordination practices within and across government levels,
- 03:22 countries with poor level of preparedness for disasters generally, and also inadequate
- 03:29 investments in technology and digital skills will struggle to respond in this kind of context.
- 03:37 Now, if you look at some of the containment measures that have been undertaking like the
- 03:43 lockdown and social distancing, which I mentioned earlier on, they post very serious challenges to a
- 03:49 state of continuity in some jurisdictions. Let me give some examples. Imagine for instance,
- 03:56 a government that now needs to adopt a certain level of remote working without the necessary
- 04:03 infrastructure and procedures in place before the pandemic. Imagine for instance, countries where
- 04:11 their regulations require that files must still be carried from one office to another. Then imagine
- 04:19 for instance, the absence of government technology solutions, what we call "GovTech", to run the core
- 04:25 operations of government remotely and to deliver services to citizens and businesses. All of that
- 04:32 would make a lot of countries to be unable to respond effectively. But in fragile and conflict
- 04:39 and follies affected countries, then you have further complications in terms of weaker public
- 04:45 institutions, weaker coordination across levels of government, security issues that might prevent
- 04:53 access and also poor infrastructure. [Srimathi Sridhar]
- 04:58 So Ed, I'm glad you mentioned this because it seems to me from what you're saying that it's
- 05:02 those countries that are in the greatest need that are going to have the toughest time, keeping their
- 05:08 governments functioning. Wouldn't you say? [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 05:10 Yes, unfortunately. Many fragile and conflict and follies affected countries as well as low-income
- 05:20 countries, have found it more challenging to ensure state continuity in this period.
- 05:27 We have to imagine what the issues are. They face challenges around the core operations of
- 05:35 government. Earlier on, I mentioned that if you have to work remotely, how well were they prepared
- 05:40 to do this? How can you deliver services if you have to work remotely and you are not prepared
- 05:47 for that? What about coordination across levels of government if you didn't have a good arrangement
- 05:52 for that before? Also, when you then look at the lockdown and the challenges of working remotely,
- 05:59 how do they develop and implement a comprehensive package of response to the crisis? So among other
- 06:07 things what you are then going to find is that countries that have made less investment
- 06:12 in technology and digital skills, less investment in strengthening public institutions and systems,
- 06:18 and have not focused on modernizing the public employment management will have bigger challenges.
- 06:25 [Srimathi Sridhar] Great Ed. Hold on to these thoughts.
- 06:29 Before we dive any deeper, I want to take a quick break here and welcome those of you online,
- 06:33 who have been listening in. If you're just joining us, welcome to World Bank Live. We're
- 06:37 here with Ed Olowo-Okere, he is the director of the Governance Global Practice here at the World
- 06:43 Bank. We're talking about how we can reduce the risk of corruption during the COVID-19 pandemic,
- 06:48 as well as the specific role that governments and the state are playing at this time. We
- 06:53 see a lot of new folks tuning in, so a big welcome to all of you. Thanks for being here.
- 06:57 Just looking at our audience. We've got Lisbeth from Peru, Milos from Serbia, Danielle from
- 07:04 London, Wendy from Honduras, Clement from Zambia, Russell from Bangladesh, Kumrat from Indonesia
- 07:11 and Yvonne from Mexico. So hi guys, it's great to have you here with us and we hope you're enjoying
- 07:16 the program so far. Now Ed, let's get back to our conversation here. We've talked a little
- 07:22 bit about the role that governments play during a crisis like this pandemic. Some are obvious
- 07:27 and some are less obvious, but now let's bring in the threat of corruption and unpack this a
- 07:32 little bit further. On a basic level, if it isn't addressed, what is the impact of corruption on
- 07:38 countries and their people? [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 07:41 Corruption can impact a country and its people in many ways. We could probably spend the whole of
- 07:50 today talking about that. But then in the interest of time, let me kind of try to summarize. First,
- 07:58 corruption can divert resources away from where they are most needed. Take for example,
- 08:05 in most of our client countries, we need more investments in health, in education,
- 08:11 in infrastructure and other development programs. Corruption will take resources
- 08:15 away from that. Then corruption can also divert resources away from those who need the resources
- 08:22 the most. Take for example, the poor and we still have millions of that in the world,
- 08:28 the jobless, and we have millions more of that as well. Then we also have like the
- 08:34 small and medium term enterprises who could benefit from the support from the government,
- 08:41 but corruption will take resources away from them. So what you then have is that corruption benefits
- 08:47 a few people who then pocket the resources that belong to everyone. The consequence of
- 08:55 that is that you have increasing or widening inequality in any country that is having a lot
- 09:03 of corruption. We also have to know part of the impact of the corruption as well. Corruption will
- 09:10 undermine trust in public institutions and the government generally. That can render a
- 09:18 government ineffective if there is lack of trust from the citizens, from the private sector. To
- 09:24 sum it up, corruption can prevent a country from achieving its full potential, and if I may say,
- 09:33 corruption is evil. [Srimathi Sridhar]
- 09:34 Okay, Ed. Let's now tie in what you're saying about corruption, specifically with the COVID-19
- 09:41 crisis that we're facing today. You recently wrote a blog about corruption risks. Folks
- 09:46 can find it on our World Bank blog platform about how the response to the pandemic raises the risks
- 09:52 of corruption. You said "at its worst corruption could lead to unnecessary suffering and even loss
- 09:57 of lives by diverting scarce resources from the people and places who need them the most". Can you
- 10:04 explain why that is and which areas are affected? [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 10:08 Yes, that is absolutely true. Let's go back again to the basics and that is the nature of
- 10:16 the pandemic. It requires speedy response from the government. In the process of providing
- 10:24 that speedy response, then a lot of things can go wrong. Let us also not forget that in this
- 10:30 environment of a serious human crisis, there are those who also kind of see this as an
- 10:38 opportunity to make money. The standard checks and balances as they are designed for governments,
- 10:46 they are not necessary for emergencies or for speedy response. What you can have in a situation
- 10:52 like this is that the checks and balances as they were originally designed can be skipped.
- 10:57 Confusions may arise on oversight. For instance, as the governments try to coordinate within and
- 11:06 across levels of government. Then, it is also possible that in the process of wanting to do
- 11:13 things speedily, attention may not be paid to adequate documentation, adequate reporting.
- 11:20 We have to understand, nevertheless, this is capable of undermining trust in government. I
- 11:28 think I mentioned that earlier on. In the context of this pandemic, if trust in government is
- 11:34 already undermined, then corruption can generally render the government response and interventions
- 11:41 ineffective. Let me maybe give some concrete example. Governments may make interventions,
- 11:51 for instance like some containment measures like lockdown and so on and so forth. If it is possible
- 11:59 to give bribes to law enforcement officials, to be exempted from containment measures,
- 12:06 then the expected result of containment or lockdown may not necessarily be achieved.
- 12:15 Also imagine for instance that the funds that are meant to procure protective gear
- 12:22 for health workers are diverted. Then you have health workers being exposed unnecessarily.
- 12:31 In terms of the areas that corruption affects, I think it's all aspects of government response.
- 12:39 Whether it is the [inaudible] response, if you take the [inaudible] response, for instance,
- 12:42 there could be corruption in the procurement of medical supplies, even in the distribution.
- 12:48 There could also be corruption in the payment of salaries and allowances to health workers. Then,
- 12:55 let's go to another category of government response like support
- 12:58 to households. The money may not necessarily go to poor people or those who are the most
- 13:04 vulnerable. It is possible that the cash could be diverted. Goods, I mean foods,
- 13:13 for instance, that are being procured for governments to be distributed to households,
- 13:17 the prices can be inflated. [Srimathi Sridhar]
- 13:19 Absolutely. [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 13:20 Yeah. In terms of support to farms, also you can have government favor in certain
- 13:26 sectors because of influence by some powerful individuals. Those are some of the areas.
- 13:32 [Srimathi Sridhar] Great Ed and I want to
- 13:35 talk about law enforcement specifically. Would you say that emergency measures to
- 13:40 restrict people's movements to stop the spread of the virus could actually heighten corruption?
- 13:44 [Ed Olowo-Okere] Yes, unfortunately. As we
- 13:50 are seeing many countries across the globe, law enforcement agencies are being asked to enforce
- 13:57 the emergency measures. And the question is why? Some people may not necessarily want to comply
- 14:04 and they may have reasons why they want to get an exception. In some jurisdictions that really
- 14:12 provides opportunities for the law enforcers to ask for and receive bribes. I'm not just imagining
- 14:20 this, I'm sure there are people watching these live events that have heard about this or have
- 14:27 experienced this first hand. [Srimathi Sridhar]
- 14:33 Well Ed, this is a good moment to take a quick break and welcome folks who may have just joined
- 14:37 us. A huge welcome to everybody who's watching us from around the world. We're so happy to have you
- 14:41 here with us. We're talking to Ed Olowo-Okere. He is the director of the Governance Global Practice
- 14:47 here at the World Bank. We're talking about the risks of corruption during the COVID-19 pandemic
- 14:52 and the specific role governments and the state play during this crisis. Now at this time, we
- 14:58 have got Hassan from Egypt, Johanna from the Ivory Coast, Sierra from Gambia, Jeanne from Barbados,
- 15:06 Anan from Laos, David from Germany, Dora from Dubai and Melinda from Papua New Guinea. Guys,
- 15:14 that's fantastic. Hi, and it's great to have you here. Thanks so much for saying hello and we hope
- 15:19 you're enjoying the program so far. Ed let's keep our conversation going. We've talked about the
- 15:26 role governments play in this pandemic, as well as added pressures in challenges now with the
- 15:32 risk of corruption. So let's start to look ahead a little bit. Huge government spending is vital
- 15:38 in the response to COVID-19. How do you think we ensure it continues but also guard against
- 15:44 corruption at the same time? [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 15:45 I think this is a very important question. It is important to ensure that the government
- 15:52 programs and spending continues and they are effective and achieve their desired results. Now,
- 15:59 I think what governments should do is first to recognize explicitly the risk of corruption.
- 16:05 As I said earlier on, there are people who see this as an opportunity to make money.
- 16:11 That's a fact of life. Now, governments who then assess the risks of corruption upfront and they
- 16:19 look at each of the different categories of their response, whether it is the [inaudible] response,
- 16:24 the support to household or support to firms, and see what are the risks of corruption,
- 16:31 also put in place adequate mitigation measures to be able to address that.
- 16:36 Then there are also some other important things. I think government should really deal with
- 16:41 corruption issues promptly. I mean corruption will still occur. So deal with it promptly and be very
- 16:48 transparent about what the cases of corruption are and how they are dealing with it. Then,
- 16:53 more generally, governments should also strengthen accountability measures. There are some of these
- 16:59 like exposed audits, reporting oversight arrangements, and so on and so forth. Also
- 17:06 governments should really ensure and enhance transparency very broadly. Including direct
- 17:14 links to citizens and to NGOs, non-governmental organizations. This will give them access to
- 17:20 information and respond to queries that they may have. If I may just state one important principle
- 17:28 to conclude on this question, government should really be very generous with information. On their
- 17:35 response program and on the spending and how they are dealing with corruption. That's very critical.
- 17:41 [Srimathi Sridhar] So Ed, let's keep this going with
- 17:45 this next question. Now, what can be done to help countries and governments? Is it about financial
- 17:51 support or is it about technical advice? [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 17:55 So financial support is very important. Many countries obviously need that. Also,
- 18:04 let's face the fact we are a bank and it is one of the things that we provide to client
- 18:10 countries. But more importantly, we also offer superb technical assistance with our global
- 18:17 expertise and our clients appreciate that a lot. Also given our global reach, we, the Bank are
- 18:27 able to identify and share best practices across countries. That is really a very important aspect
- 18:37 of our supporting countries to respond. [Srimathi Sridhar]
- 18:40 Absolutely Ed. I think this sort of segues very nicely into my last question, which is,
- 18:45 as some countries now begin to relax restrictions. There's a new for focus on how we can build back
- 18:51 better and invest in more resilient systems. Now, is this true for the areas we've been talking
- 18:56 about today? And if so, how? [Ed Olowo-Okere]
- 18:57 I would say yes and I would also like to say that when we talk about building back better,
- 19:05 we should not just look at this in terms of building and infrastructure. I think this is
- 19:13 also about building back better institutions and systems. If you look at for instance,
- 19:20 the multiple shocks that governments are experiencing as a result of this pandemic,
- 19:26 whether it is the health shock, the economy or fiscal shocks. This will provide great impetus
- 19:35 for fundamental changes in governance. To build back better, to address your question on the how,
- 19:44 to build back better governments should really be seeking answers to question in five broad areas.
- 19:54 I mean that is among other things that they may want to focus on. So one and most important is how
- 20:00 should the role of government change in delivering public services going forward. How should the
- 20:07 role of government in managing the economy and facilitating private sector activities?
- 20:12 How should that look like? What should be, for instance, the extent of the role of government
- 20:17 in ownership of companies? Then another question is, and the second one is, how should government
- 20:24 conduct its operations and deliver public services going forward? This bringing the issue of digital,
- 20:32 GovTech solutions. To what extent do they deploy GovTech solutions to manage their corporations and
- 20:39 to deliver services? Then a third question, how should government improve public sector
- 20:46 productivity? This is going to be critically important, especially given the fiscal challenges
- 20:52 that countries are facing. That's really something that countries also need to focus on.
- 20:59 A fourth area that governments should also focus on is how can citizens' trust in government be
- 21:06 enhanced? Because as I said earlier on, if trust in government and public institutions are on their
- 21:14 mind, then it can render ineffective any response that government may be making.
- 21:22 Ensuring trust in government from the citizens is really very important, so how will the government
- 21:30 use communication, various technology tools, engagement with different stakeholders to be
- 21:36 able to enhance citizens trust in government? Then a final area of question is how can governments be
- 21:46 ready for a future crisis? Let's not miss the fact that there will be another crisis so governments
- 21:54 need to be prepared. In terms of our governments will take into consideration for instance,
- 22:01 the experience they are having with this based on citizens demands and so on and so forth. They
- 22:07 should then be able to be better prepared for a future crisis. Those are some of the areas
- 22:13 that I think the government should focus on in terms of building better. This is in addition to
- 22:19 infrastructure and other things that governments are having to think about at this time.
- 22:23 [Srimathi Sridhar] Absolutely Ed. These are all really
- 22:26 excellent questions. Folks, with that, we are unfortunately out of time. I want to thank again,
- 22:31 my guest for this morning, Ed Olowo-Okere. He is the director of the Governance Global
- 22:35 Practice here at the World Bank. Ed, it's been a fantastic conversation. Thank you again.
- 22:40 [Ed Olowo-Okere] Thank you Sri. Thank you
- 22:42 and thanks to the audience. [Srimathi Sridhar]
- 22:43 Now folks, the conversation doesn't stop here. To catch a recap of all
- 22:48 our coronavirus related discussions we've had so far, head on over to live.worldbank.org and
- 22:54 to learn more about what the World Bank is doing in response to the COVID-19 pandemic,
- 22:58 be sure to check out our website it's worldbank.org/coronavirus. Thank you
- 23:04 again so much for joining us this morning. Stay healthy, stay safe, and we'll see you next time.
