Coronavirus Live Series: How can we Reduce the Risk of Corruption during the Pandemic Response?

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Coronavirus Live Series: How can we Reduce the Risk of Corruption during the Pandemic Response?

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  • 00:06 [Srimathi Sridhar] Good morning, everyone and welcome to  
  • 00:08 World Bank Live. I'm Srimathi Sridhar with the  World Bank and over the next half hour or so,  
  • 00:12 we've got a great conversation for you on the role  of government and the state as they take the lead  
  • 00:17 in responding to the COVID-19 pandemic. We'll  be asking what are the challenges and pressures  
  • 00:22 governments are facing as they cope with the  pandemic and what can be done to help them  
  • 00:26 function in these difficult times. Now, as they  look to respond efficiently, they also face the  
  • 00:31 added threat of corruption. With the pandemic  requiring a massive response by governments,  
  • 00:36 opportunities for corruption are on the rise.  So how best can governments tackle corruption  
  • 00:41 and ensure integrity in these tough times? To  talk about this and more, I'm delighted to be  
  • 00:47 joined by Ed Olowo-Okere. He is the director  of the Governance Global Practice here at the  
  • 00:52 World Bank. Ed, welcome. [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 00:54 Thank you Sri. [Srimathi Sridhar] 
  • 00:56 So Ed, let's kick things off. Take me back to  the basics here as we talk about government  
  • 01:01 and their key role in responding to the pandemic  on a global scale. It might be obvious to some,  
  • 01:07 but let's put it on record. Why are  governments so important right now and how so? 
  • 01:12 [Ed Olowo-Okere] Thanks Sri. I think it all begins with the  
  • 01:16 nature of the pandemic. The pandemic poses serious  public health and safety issues. As we have seen  
  • 01:25 in the many hundreds of thousands of lives that  have already been lost and millions of people that  
  • 01:31 have been infected across the globe, governments  really need to take emergency health response to  
  • 01:40 save lives. Citizens do expect that from their  governments. As we are also seeing in many  
  • 01:48 countries, the containment measures that have been  introduced, like the lockdown, social distancing  
  • 01:56 measures, shutdown of borders. These are really  actions that can only be taken by a government. 
  • 02:02 Now, when you look at some of the containment  measures, they're also having some ripple effects,  
  • 02:08 on all sorts of businesses. If you look at this  ripple effect, then they also require some kind  
  • 02:17 of economic response, and only governments are  capable of doing that. Then on top of that,  
  • 02:22 to be able to do all of this respond, it requires  a lot of coordination. Coordination across levels  
  • 02:30 of governments, coordination within governments  and coordination with citizens and with private  
  • 02:36 sector actors. I mean, these are proposals  that only governments are best placed to lead. 
  • 02:42 [Srimathi Sridhar] Absolutely. All these things that you mentioned,  
  • 02:46 these are all tall tasks, of course, but explain  to us why have some governments found it more  
  • 02:51 difficult to respond? [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 02:54 I think let's begin with acknowledging one very  important fact. This crisis is of an unimaginable  
  • 03:03 proportion that many governments could hardly  have foreseen these 12 months ago and prepared  
  • 03:10 adequately in advance. With that thinking,  countries with weak public institutions,  
  • 03:18 poor coordination practices within  and across government levels,  
  • 03:22 countries with poor level of preparedness  for disasters generally, and also inadequate  
  • 03:29 investments in technology and digital skills  will struggle to respond in this kind of context. 
  • 03:37 Now, if you look at some of the containment  measures that have been undertaking like the  
  • 03:43 lockdown and social distancing, which I mentioned  earlier on, they post very serious challenges to a  
  • 03:49 state of continuity in some jurisdictions. Let  me give some examples. Imagine for instance,  
  • 03:56 a government that now needs to adopt a certain  level of remote working without the necessary  
  • 04:03 infrastructure and procedures in place before the  pandemic. Imagine for instance, countries where  
  • 04:11 their regulations require that files must still be  carried from one office to another. Then imagine  
  • 04:19 for instance, the absence of government technology  solutions, what we call "GovTech", to run the core  
  • 04:25 operations of government remotely and to deliver  services to citizens and businesses. All of that  
  • 04:32 would make a lot of countries to be unable to  respond effectively. But in fragile and conflict  
  • 04:39 and follies affected countries, then you have  further complications in terms of weaker public  
  • 04:45 institutions, weaker coordination across levels  of government, security issues that might prevent  
  • 04:53 access and also poor infrastructure. [Srimathi Sridhar] 
  • 04:58 So Ed, I'm glad you mentioned this because it  seems to me from what you're saying that it's  
  • 05:02 those countries that are in the greatest need that  are going to have the toughest time, keeping their  
  • 05:08 governments functioning. Wouldn't you say? [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 05:10 Yes, unfortunately. Many fragile and conflict and  follies affected countries as well as low-income  
  • 05:20 countries, have found it more challenging  to ensure state continuity in this period.  
  • 05:27 We have to imagine what the issues are. They  face challenges around the core operations of  
  • 05:35 government. Earlier on, I mentioned that if you  have to work remotely, how well were they prepared  
  • 05:40 to do this? How can you deliver services if you  have to work remotely and you are not prepared  
  • 05:47 for that? What about coordination across levels of  government if you didn't have a good arrangement  
  • 05:52 for that before? Also, when you then look at the  lockdown and the challenges of working remotely,  
  • 05:59 how do they develop and implement a comprehensive  package of response to the crisis? So among other  
  • 06:07 things what you are then going to find is  that countries that have made less investment  
  • 06:12 in technology and digital skills, less investment  in strengthening public institutions and systems,  
  • 06:18 and have not focused on modernizing the public  employment management will have bigger challenges. 
  • 06:25 [Srimathi Sridhar] Great Ed. Hold on to these thoughts.  
  • 06:29 Before we dive any deeper, I want to take a  quick break here and welcome those of you online,  
  • 06:33 who have been listening in. If you're just  joining us, welcome to World Bank Live. We're  
  • 06:37 here with Ed Olowo-Okere, he is the director of  the Governance Global Practice here at the World  
  • 06:43 Bank. We're talking about how we can reduce the  risk of corruption during the COVID-19 pandemic,  
  • 06:48 as well as the specific role that governments  and the state are playing at this time. We  
  • 06:53 see a lot of new folks tuning in, so a big  welcome to all of you. Thanks for being here. 
  • 06:57 Just looking at our audience. We've got Lisbeth  from Peru, Milos from Serbia, Danielle from  
  • 07:04 London, Wendy from Honduras, Clement from Zambia,  Russell from Bangladesh, Kumrat from Indonesia  
  • 07:11 and Yvonne from Mexico. So hi guys, it's great to  have you here with us and we hope you're enjoying  
  • 07:16 the program so far. Now Ed, let's get back to  our conversation here. We've talked a little  
  • 07:22 bit about the role that governments play during  a crisis like this pandemic. Some are obvious  
  • 07:27 and some are less obvious, but now let's bring  in the threat of corruption and unpack this a  
  • 07:32 little bit further. On a basic level, if it isn't  addressed, what is the impact of corruption on  
  • 07:38 countries and their people? [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 07:41 Corruption can impact a country and its people in  many ways. We could probably spend the whole of  
  • 07:50 today talking about that. But then in the interest  of time, let me kind of try to summarize. First,  
  • 07:58 corruption can divert resources away from  where they are most needed. Take for example,  
  • 08:05 in most of our client countries, we need  more investments in health, in education,  
  • 08:11 in infrastructure and other development  programs. Corruption will take resources  
  • 08:15 away from that. Then corruption can also divert  resources away from those who need the resources  
  • 08:22 the most. Take for example, the poor and we  still have millions of that in the world,  
  • 08:28 the jobless, and we have millions more of  that as well. Then we also have like the  
  • 08:34 small and medium term enterprises who could  benefit from the support from the government,  
  • 08:41 but corruption will take resources away from them. So what you then have is that corruption benefits  
  • 08:47 a few people who then pocket the resources  that belong to everyone. The consequence of  
  • 08:55 that is that you have increasing or widening  inequality in any country that is having a lot  
  • 09:03 of corruption. We also have to know part of the  impact of the corruption as well. Corruption will  
  • 09:10 undermine trust in public institutions and  the government generally. That can render a  
  • 09:18 government ineffective if there is lack of trust  from the citizens, from the private sector. To  
  • 09:24 sum it up, corruption can prevent a country from  achieving its full potential, and if I may say,  
  • 09:33 corruption is evil. [Srimathi Sridhar] 
  • 09:34 Okay, Ed. Let's now tie in what you're saying  about corruption, specifically with the COVID-19  
  • 09:41 crisis that we're facing today. You recently  wrote a blog about corruption risks. Folks  
  • 09:46 can find it on our World Bank blog platform about  how the response to the pandemic raises the risks  
  • 09:52 of corruption. You said "at its worst corruption  could lead to unnecessary suffering and even loss  
  • 09:57 of lives by diverting scarce resources from the  people and places who need them the most". Can you  
  • 10:04 explain why that is and which areas are affected? [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 10:08 Yes, that is absolutely true. Let's go back  again to the basics and that is the nature of  
  • 10:16 the pandemic. It requires speedy response from  the government. In the process of providing  
  • 10:24 that speedy response, then a lot of things can  go wrong. Let us also not forget that in this  
  • 10:30 environment of a serious human crisis, there  are those who also kind of see this as an  
  • 10:38 opportunity to make money. The standard checks  and balances as they are designed for governments,  
  • 10:46 they are not necessary for emergencies or for  speedy response. What you can have in a situation  
  • 10:52 like this is that the checks and balances as  they were originally designed can be skipped.  
  • 10:57 Confusions may arise on oversight. For instance,  as the governments try to coordinate within and  
  • 11:06 across levels of government. Then, it is also  possible that in the process of wanting to do  
  • 11:13 things speedily, attention may not be paid to  adequate documentation, adequate reporting. 
  • 11:20 We have to understand, nevertheless, this is  capable of undermining trust in government. I  
  • 11:28 think I mentioned that earlier on. In the context  of this pandemic, if trust in government is  
  • 11:34 already undermined, then corruption can generally  render the government response and interventions  
  • 11:41 ineffective. Let me maybe give some concrete  example. Governments may make interventions,  
  • 11:51 for instance like some containment measures like  lockdown and so on and so forth. If it is possible  
  • 11:59 to give bribes to law enforcement officials,  to be exempted from containment measures,  
  • 12:06 then the expected result of containment or  lockdown may not necessarily be achieved.  
  • 12:15 Also imagine for instance that the funds  that are meant to procure protective gear  
  • 12:22 for health workers are diverted. Then you have  health workers being exposed unnecessarily. 
  • 12:31 In terms of the areas that corruption affects,  I think it's all aspects of government response.  
  • 12:39 Whether it is the [inaudible] response, if you  take the [inaudible] response, for instance,  
  • 12:42 there could be corruption in the procurement  of medical supplies, even in the distribution.  
  • 12:48 There could also be corruption in the payment of  salaries and allowances to health workers. Then,  
  • 12:55 let's go to another category of  government response like support  
  • 12:58 to households. The money may not necessarily  go to poor people or those who are the most  
  • 13:04 vulnerable. It is possible that the cash  could be diverted. Goods, I mean foods,  
  • 13:13 for instance, that are being procured for  governments to be distributed to households,  
  • 13:17 the prices can be inflated. [Srimathi Sridhar] 
  • 13:19 Absolutely. [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 13:20 Yeah. In terms of support to farms, also  you can have government favor in certain  
  • 13:26 sectors because of influence by some powerful  individuals. Those are some of the areas. 
  • 13:32 [Srimathi Sridhar] Great Ed and I want to  
  • 13:35 talk about law enforcement specifically.  Would you say that emergency measures to  
  • 13:40 restrict people's movements to stop the spread  of the virus could actually heighten corruption? 
  • 13:44 [Ed Olowo-Okere] Yes, unfortunately. As we  
  • 13:50 are seeing many countries across the globe, law  enforcement agencies are being asked to enforce  
  • 13:57 the emergency measures. And the question is why?  Some people may not necessarily want to comply  
  • 14:04 and they may have reasons why they want to get  an exception. In some jurisdictions that really  
  • 14:12 provides opportunities for the law enforcers to  ask for and receive bribes. I'm not just imagining  
  • 14:20 this, I'm sure there are people watching these  live events that have heard about this or have  
  • 14:27 experienced this first hand. [Srimathi Sridhar] 
  • 14:33 Well Ed, this is a good moment to take a quick  break and welcome folks who may have just joined  
  • 14:37 us. A huge welcome to everybody who's watching us  from around the world. We're so happy to have you  
  • 14:41 here with us. We're talking to Ed Olowo-Okere. He  is the director of the Governance Global Practice  
  • 14:47 here at the World Bank. We're talking about the  risks of corruption during the COVID-19 pandemic  
  • 14:52 and the specific role governments and the state  play during this crisis. Now at this time, we  
  • 14:58 have got Hassan from Egypt, Johanna from the Ivory  Coast, Sierra from Gambia, Jeanne from Barbados,  
  • 15:06 Anan from Laos, David from Germany, Dora from  Dubai and Melinda from Papua New Guinea. Guys,  
  • 15:14 that's fantastic. Hi, and it's great to have you  here. Thanks so much for saying hello and we hope  
  • 15:19 you're enjoying the program so far. Ed let's keep  our conversation going. We've talked about the  
  • 15:26 role governments play in this pandemic, as well  as added pressures in challenges now with the  
  • 15:32 risk of corruption. So let's start to look ahead  a little bit. Huge government spending is vital  
  • 15:38 in the response to COVID-19. How do you think  we ensure it continues but also guard against  
  • 15:44 corruption at the same time? [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 15:45 I think this is a very important question.  It is important to ensure that the government  
  • 15:52 programs and spending continues and they are  effective and achieve their desired results. Now,  
  • 15:59 I think what governments should do is first to  recognize explicitly the risk of corruption.  
  • 16:05 As I said earlier on, there are people who  see this as an opportunity to make money.  
  • 16:11 That's a fact of life. Now, governments who then  assess the risks of corruption upfront and they  
  • 16:19 look at each of the different categories of their  response, whether it is the [inaudible] response,  
  • 16:24 the support to household or support to firms,  and see what are the risks of corruption,  
  • 16:31 also put in place adequate mitigation  measures to be able to address that. 
  • 16:36 Then there are also some other important things.  I think government should really deal with  
  • 16:41 corruption issues promptly. I mean corruption will  still occur. So deal with it promptly and be very  
  • 16:48 transparent about what the cases of corruption  are and how they are dealing with it. Then,  
  • 16:53 more generally, governments should also strengthen  accountability measures. There are some of these  
  • 16:59 like exposed audits, reporting oversight  arrangements, and so on and so forth. Also  
  • 17:06 governments should really ensure and enhance  transparency very broadly. Including direct  
  • 17:14 links to citizens and to NGOs, non-governmental  organizations. This will give them access to  
  • 17:20 information and respond to queries that they may  have. If I may just state one important principle  
  • 17:28 to conclude on this question, government should  really be very generous with information. On their  
  • 17:35 response program and on the spending and how they  are dealing with corruption. That's very critical. 
  • 17:41 [Srimathi Sridhar] So Ed, let's keep this going with  
  • 17:45 this next question. Now, what can be done to help  countries and governments? Is it about financial  
  • 17:51 support or is it about technical advice? [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 17:55 So financial support is very important.  Many countries obviously need that. Also,  
  • 18:04 let's face the fact we are a bank and it is  one of the things that we provide to client  
  • 18:10 countries. But more importantly, we also offer  superb technical assistance with our global  
  • 18:17 expertise and our clients appreciate that a lot.  Also given our global reach, we, the Bank are  
  • 18:27 able to identify and share best practices across  countries. That is really a very important aspect  
  • 18:37 of our supporting countries to respond. [Srimathi Sridhar] 
  • 18:40 Absolutely Ed. I think this sort of segues  very nicely into my last question, which is,  
  • 18:45 as some countries now begin to relax restrictions.  There's a new for focus on how we can build back  
  • 18:51 better and invest in more resilient systems. Now,  is this true for the areas we've been talking  
  • 18:56 about today? And if so, how? [Ed Olowo-Okere] 
  • 18:57 I would say yes and I would also like to say  that when we talk about building back better,  
  • 19:05 we should not just look at this in terms of  building and infrastructure. I think this is  
  • 19:13 also about building back better institutions  and systems. If you look at for instance,  
  • 19:20 the multiple shocks that governments are  experiencing as a result of this pandemic,  
  • 19:26 whether it is the health shock, the economy or  fiscal shocks. This will provide great impetus  
  • 19:35 for fundamental changes in governance. To build  back better, to address your question on the how,  
  • 19:44 to build back better governments should really be  seeking answers to question in five broad areas. 
  • 19:54 I mean that is among other things that they may  want to focus on. So one and most important is how  
  • 20:00 should the role of government change in delivering  public services going forward. How should the  
  • 20:07 role of government in managing the economy  and facilitating private sector activities?  
  • 20:12 How should that look like? What should be, for  instance, the extent of the role of government  
  • 20:17 in ownership of companies? Then another question  is, and the second one is, how should government  
  • 20:24 conduct its operations and deliver public services  going forward? This bringing the issue of digital,  
  • 20:32 GovTech solutions. To what extent do they deploy  GovTech solutions to manage their corporations and  
  • 20:39 to deliver services? Then a third question,  how should government improve public sector  
  • 20:46 productivity? This is going to be critically  important, especially given the fiscal challenges  
  • 20:52 that countries are facing. That's really  something that countries also need to focus on. 
  • 20:59 A fourth area that governments should also focus  on is how can citizens' trust in government be  
  • 21:06 enhanced? Because as I said earlier on, if trust  in government and public institutions are on their  
  • 21:14 mind, then it can render ineffective any  response that government may be making.  
  • 21:22 Ensuring trust in government from the citizens is  really very important, so how will the government  
  • 21:30 use communication, various technology tools,  engagement with different stakeholders to be  
  • 21:36 able to enhance citizens trust in government? Then  a final area of question is how can governments be  
  • 21:46 ready for a future crisis? Let's not miss the fact  that there will be another crisis so governments  
  • 21:54 need to be prepared. In terms of our governments  will take into consideration for instance,  
  • 22:01 the experience they are having with this based  on citizens demands and so on and so forth. They  
  • 22:07 should then be able to be better prepared for  a future crisis. Those are some of the areas  
  • 22:13 that I think the government should focus on in  terms of building better. This is in addition to  
  • 22:19 infrastructure and other things that governments  are having to think about at this time. 
  • 22:23 [Srimathi Sridhar] Absolutely Ed. These are all really  
  • 22:26 excellent questions. Folks, with that, we are  unfortunately out of time. I want to thank again,  
  • 22:31 my guest for this morning, Ed Olowo-Okere.  He is the director of the Governance Global  
  • 22:35 Practice here at the World Bank. Ed, it's been  a fantastic conversation. Thank you again. 
  • 22:40 [Ed Olowo-Okere] Thank you Sri. Thank you  
  • 22:42 and thanks to the audience. [Srimathi Sridhar] 
  • 22:43 Now folks, the conversation doesn't  stop here. To catch a recap of all  
  • 22:48 our coronavirus related discussions we've had  so far, head on over to live.worldbank.org and  
  • 22:54 to learn more about what the World Bank is  doing in response to the COVID-19 pandemic,  
  • 22:58 be sure to check out our website it's  worldbank.org/coronavirus. Thank you  
  • 23:04 again so much for joining us this morning. Stay  healthy, stay safe, and we'll see you next time.

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