Data for Better Lives – World Development Report 2021

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Data for Better Lives – World Development Report 2021

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Speakers

Moderator

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  • 00:02 [Raj Kumar]: Well. Welcome, everyone.
  • 00:03 I'm Raj Kumar, the President and  Editor-in-Chief of Devex. Really honored to  
  • 00:08 help moderate this conversation today. This is  always a moment in the calendar when we look to  
  • 00:13 the publication of the World Development Report.  Right? Every year this report comes out of the  
  • 00:17 World Bank Group and it hits on a key issue in  development, probably an issue we talk about, but  
  • 00:22 it brings it to a new level in the conversation  and that's what we're here to do. Today,  
  • 00:26 the topic is data and we've got an incredible  group to help guide this discussion. It would be  
  • 00:33 an insightful conversation with any of the four  of you. We got all four, which is a real treat.
  • 00:37 [Raj Kumar]: I want to welcome President Kersti Kaljulaid,  
  • 00:40 who's the President of Estonia, David Malpass,  of course the President of the World Bank Group,  
  • 00:44 President Brad Smith of Microsoft and Ngozi  Okonjo-Iweala, who is now the Director-General,  
  • 00:50 I don't have to say nominee anymore, the new  Director-General of the World Trade Organization.  
  • 00:55 Fantastic to be with all of you to talk about  this important subject. We've all become armchair  
  • 01:01 epidemiologists during the pandemic, we're quite  used to looking at data and charts. Those of us in  
  • 01:06 journalism, you see our stories now replete with  charts, but this report is telling us something a  
  • 01:12 little bit different. In fact, it's a big idea  around data, which is why it's so important.
  • 01:16 [Raj Kumar]: The idea is this, that  
  • 01:18 we are not taking advantage of the  enormous opportunity that data provides  
  • 01:23 to serve the lowest income countries and  the poorest people. That there is this  
  • 01:28 yawning gap of inequality in the world. We've all  seen it, it's gotten worse during the pandemic  
  • 01:33 and data, both hold some promise and some peril  that there's opportunities here, if we focus on  
  • 01:38 it and think about it in the right way. So, it's  an important report, it's got a really big idea  
  • 01:43 in it and we're going to get into that today  with this group. So I'm excited to do that. I  
  • 01:48 wanted to just start with you David, if we could,  you focus on low and middle income countries,  
  • 01:53 you're looking at this growing gap, this growing  inequality, the heightened extreme poverty and  
  • 01:59 you're thinking about many tools that the bank has  to address it. Where do you see data fitting in?
  • 02:04 [David R. Malpass]: Yeah, thanks Raj and I'm  
  • 02:07 very interested in the views of the others on  the panel. What we've done with this report is,  
  • 02:13 and it's been two years in the making,  it goes through and shows that data is  
  • 02:20 very positive and has huge potential  but then how do we fill in the gap?  
  • 02:25 So, if I can give one aspect of that is the actual  digital systems in developing countries are behind  
  • 02:33 advanced economies. And so, how do you create the  infrastructure that allows more data to be used  
  • 02:40 by the people of the country? That's a very  positive side and a challenge. Then, on the-
  • 02:47 [crosstalk]: I think he's not connecting or something.
  • 02:50 [David R. Malpass]: Another-
  • 02:51 [Raj Kumar]: We got a little crosstalk  
  • 02:53 from somebody who didn't turn off their mic, but  they'll go ahead and do that, you continue, David.
  • 02:57 [David R. Malpass]: Okay. So then, another aspect is to apply data to  
  • 03:04 the immediate challenges. We're trying to do that  with vaccine, with the vaccine effort, that means  
  • 03:11 for example, simply the systems in countries  to keep track of who's been vaccinated. Those  
  • 03:17 are very important because then you can move more  quickly through the population. We're doing that.  
  • 03:22 We were able to do assessments on 100 countries,  developing, many of them very poor countries of  
  • 03:30 what do they need in order to be able to  vaccinate their population when those vaccines  
  • 03:37 become available? One other timely importance  of data is we're in the process of rolling out  
  • 03:47 our climate change action report and one thing  I hope we can do this morning is talk about  
  • 03:54 what actions would be most useful for various  countries in terms of expanding their data?
  • 04:00 [David R. Malpass]: With regard to climate then one of the key things  
  • 04:04 is to prioritize efforts so that they have the  most impact. In order to do that, you have to have  
  • 04:10 a lot of data about what emits carbon, what are  the ways to slow that down or reverse it? I know  
  • 04:21 Microsoft's been very involved in that effort.  Those are some of the things that we're looking  
  • 04:26 at and the report gives this important baseline  for people to study or to read as far as both the  
  • 04:39 very positive story of data, of big data, of  small data, of useful data for farmers. Then,  
  • 04:47 also some of the challenges or the drawbacks or  the dangers that are inherent in these areas.
  • 04:54 [Raj Kumar]: Yeah, we're going to get into all of that. For  
  • 04:56 those who are following along, the report is out,  it just came out 30 minutes ago. You can follow on  
  • 05:02 Twitter, #WDR2021. Tell us what you think of this  conversation. We're also getting questions in the  
  • 05:08 chat that we'll try to integrate as we go through.  President Kaljulaid, maybe we can just start with  
  • 05:12 this focus on the pandemic. Right? We've all  started to see data in a new light due to it.  
  • 05:18 Your country and you personally are known  for digitization, for thinking about  
  • 05:23 data as a key tool in governance,  in public policy, decision making.  
  • 05:27 Has anything shifted for you due to this pandemic?  Have you had a new realization about how to use  
  • 05:31 data or do you think we're in a different place in  policy making, in governance due to the pandemic?
  • 05:37 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: Well, not really. Two things had to  
  • 05:42 change immediately when the pandemic started.  First thing was that previously in Estonia,  
  • 05:47 you had to go to a doctor when you fell sick and  then the doctor started in your eHealth file,  
  • 05:52 your sick leave. The first weeks of  pandemic, we realized that much safer  
  • 05:57 is to allow people themselves to start their  sick leave in eHealth. Their doctor gets informed  
  • 06:03 and then gets in phone or Zoom or whichever  media contact with the patient and then  
  • 06:10 the service delivery goes from there. So, we  avoided people going to the doctor's offices to be  
  • 06:16 infected by others who are there while not knowing  they might be Corona positive. One example.
  • 06:22 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: Second example.  
  • 06:25 Well, nowadays in Estonia, you might be in  the group who has the right to be vaccinated,  
  • 06:30 not everybody does. You have to be above  the age of 60 or work in frontline job.  
  • 06:37 If you have the right to be vaccinated, your  eHealth system flashes a red button for you.  
  • 06:43 You click on this red button and then you can  match your right to be vaccinated with the space  
  • 06:49 and the time to get the shot. Just two examples.  But of course, you cannot create such a system  
  • 06:56 when pandemic starts. I mean, all Estonians,  a whole generation already because it's  
  • 07:01 20-years-old system what we use here. Nothing  to do with big data shift frankly speaking,  
  • 07:05 it's a KSI or a keyless signature infrastructure,  something similar to how Bitcoin is run. Safe,  
  • 07:12 secure, digital identity timestamp. So this is  not database system, which Estonia is running.
  • 07:18 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: Of course, a lot of data is created and a  
  • 07:21 lot of this data safe, the regulation here is in  place, this regulation created 10 years earlier  
  • 07:26 than European Union did. But the basic service is  not shifting data for the benefits of the people  
  • 07:32 but allowing people to use the e-Government  services without going to the offices.  
  • 07:38 Frankly speaking, my daughter who has three  children, cannot imagine she would have to  
  • 07:43 go to anywhere to register the name for the  baby, ridiculous idea for her. She's 32 now.
  • 07:51 [Raj Kumar]: Yeah, I've been in  
  • 07:53 countries where you see the mothers, new mothers  holding their newborn babies in line at a notary  
  • 07:59 to register births. In fact, David talked about  the huge gaps. One point that the report makes is  
  • 08:05 that there's not a single low income country  that has a complete vital statistics system.
  • 08:11 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: I'm sorry. I mean,  
  • 08:12 that really scratched my ear  when you get talking about  
  • 08:17 low income, middle income, high income and having  different digitalized systems. Yes, it's true.  
  • 08:24 Rich countries, quite a lot run dual systems  that are lots and lots of government offices,  
  • 08:29 lots and lots of obligations to go these offices  and somewhere in the background, the eSystems  
  • 08:34 which help the clouds to deal with people turning  to the offices. I don't know of any high income  
  • 08:41 country where a citizen has a single one-stop  self-service shop for all government services.
  • 08:50 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: I know only one lower level high  
  • 08:53 income but at the low end and this is Estonia.  I know another, which is pretty close and this  
  • 08:59 is Portugal. I know a third one, which has really  good eServices, which is high income but doesn't  
  • 09:05 have ethos compatible digital ID. This is Denmark.  This is an encouragement for middle income and low  
  • 09:12 income countries. You don't have to be terribly  rich, you don't have to be terribly expensive  
  • 09:17 data exchange systems, most of Estonian  e-Government system is ready to run on 3G.  
  • 09:23 As I said, it only uses keyless signature  infrastructure. It's 20 years old technology, free  
  • 09:29 by the way to be used. So, this is a myth that you  need really a lot of money to develop eServices.  
  • 09:38 It's not simply true and developed nations  simply cannot boast that they have really  
  • 09:44 advanced e-Government systems. They have lot  of legacy systems. That's what they have.
  • 09:48 [Raj Kumar]: That's a fair point. I want to bring you  
  • 09:51 into this, Ngozi and get your take on where we are  in general in the discussion. You're thinking of  
  • 09:55 the WTO about trade but of course, the economy of  the future, and of today, really and the massive  
  • 10:02 inequality we see is reflected in the digital  economy and in the data and the lack of access to  
  • 10:08 it or the way it's held or transferred. How do you  see this issue of data from your new perch at WTO?
  • 10:14 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: Well, thank you so much,  
  • 10:17 Raj. I mean, I think I want to really  congratulate David and the bank for this  
  • 10:23 WDR because I think it's exciting. It  shows a lot of potential for what data  
  • 10:29 can do and I completely agree that part of  the key for inclusion, for fighting poverty  
  • 10:37 lies in how we use data and how we can use  data responsibly, to change people's lives.  
  • 10:45 From the trade perspective, just looking at one  aspect, you mentioned digital services and digital  
  • 10:53 trade where we have the eCommerce negotiations  that are ongoing now among members.
  • 11:00 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: Admittedly, they are plurilateral  
  • 11:03 negotiations, not all members around the table  yet, but a good number of developing countries  
  • 11:10 among the 80 or so, who are participating in these  negotiations. But there are also many who are not.  
  • 11:16 Now what the negotiations are trying to do  is to recognize the explosion of the digital  
  • 11:22 economy and the importance of eCommerce, which  has really shown itself during this pandemic and  
  • 11:28 the realization that many developing countries  can benefit from this, that micro, medium and  
  • 11:36 small enterprises can have platforms that can  help them reach others and sell on the internet.
  • 11:44 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: All of these, women in particular,  
  • 11:47 you're talking of women in trade. This is  also a platform, but we don't have rules  
  • 11:52 and standards that govern the eCommerce.  To make sure we have a level playing field,  
  • 11:58 we need these rules. That is why the negotiations  are ongoing, trying to put in place standards,  
  • 12:04 that can govern the use of  data, trade data in this case.
  • 12:08 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: We don't have those standards. There's  
  • 12:10 a lot of fear. We have massive cross-border  data flows, but many developing countries don't  
  • 12:17 have the regulatory capacity to manage this. So  committing to these negotiations without knowing  
  • 12:24 what it will mean in future is difficult. So lots  of data, but how to manage it, how to govern it  
  • 12:32 within the trades. Yeah. That's what  we are struggling with, right now.
  • 12:35 [Raj Kumar]: Brad, you've been very outspoken on  
  • 12:37 exactly this topic. I remember when GDPR came out  and you announced Microsoft was going to use it as  
  • 12:42 a standard globally. You've talked a lot about the  legal frameworks, regulatory frameworks. I guess,  
  • 12:48 I wonder what your feedback is on Ngozi's point  here. Is it that the technology and the amount of  
  • 12:54 data being generated is just moving too fast for  countries, unlike Estonia, perhaps to catch up and  
  • 13:01 to stay on top of this, or what do you think is  actually needed to do what this report is asking  
  • 13:06 us to grapple with and take the data that's  out there and make it actually serve people?
  • 13:10 [Brad Smith]: Well, it's a great question and  
  • 13:12 I would say a few things. Number one, I think that  the report is so well timed. It's so important and  
  • 13:17 I think we should all recognize that it doesn't  matter in what area you work. If you are working  
  • 13:24 on an important problem, data is really the new  and indispensable tool to help you address it.  
  • 13:30 We're working with governments around the  world on very concrete issues like COVID  
  • 13:36 and carbon and corruption and data really is what  can make the difference in advancing our efforts.
  • 13:44 [Brad Smith]: The second thing I would say is it  
  • 13:46 actually starts, I think, with a very practical  aspect. You can really put data to work only if  
  • 13:53 people are measuring the same thing the same way.  Otherwise, it actually just creates confusion.  
  • 14:00 A year ago, one of the big questions around  the world, it still is a big question today,  
  • 14:06 is what was the hospital capacity? How many  intensive care unit beds were available in that  
  • 14:12 hospital? How many of them were occupied?  How many of them were occupied by COVID  
  • 14:16 patients? You needed to know that on a regional or  national basis, to manage the healthcare system.  
  • 14:23 But until every hospital was measuring the  same thing, the same way, you couldn't tell.
  • 14:29 [Brad Smith]: You need data systems that  
  • 14:31 capture that and then reported very quickly.  That's where the digital tech comes into play.  
  • 14:38 Then you need to make it easy for people to  understand. This is where data visualization  
  • 14:43 is such a game changer. We're all so used  today to seeing different graphs that show  
  • 14:48 us whether COVID rates are going up or down,  or how quickly are vaccinations going up? So  
  • 14:54 you just take those ingredients and then I  think you just recognize one other thing.  
  • 15:00 Unlike most of the economic assets  in the world, data is non-rival risk.
  • 15:05 [Brad Smith]: Meaning I can use it,  
  • 15:07 you can use it. We need to have safeguards  in place and this is where your reference to  
  • 15:11 regulation is so important. We need safeguards  in place to determine who gets to control  
  • 15:17 it and how we protect privacy and security in  it. But the good news is, humanity is probably  
  • 15:24 better at creating data faster than almost  anything else. There will be more and more  
  • 15:30 data and we can help every country, I think,  figure out how to put it to better work.
  • 15:35 [Raj Kumar]: 
  • 15:37 Yeah. There's in fact, a section in the  report that gets into exactly that point,  
  • 15:40 the opportunity to reuse data and the idea that  it's not so clear, you can't just say, "Well,  
  • 15:46 this person owns it or this government owns it."  You need to think about data in a more nuanced  
  • 15:50 light. It is complex as an issue, and maybe  it gets to a point in the report that perhaps  
  • 15:55 all of you want to comment on. The report talks  about data as a double-edged sword, right? That  
  • 16:00 it has all this fantastic potential, but because  of the downside risks and the lack of trust, and  
  • 16:06 there's a tremendous lack of trust of institutions  and groups that have access to and control data,  
  • 16:12 that there's a challenge in threading  this and getting to a productive future  
  • 16:17 for governments, for digital services for  e-Government. I wonder, maybe I can just  
  • 16:20 start with you David, to chime in here, on  this point of data as a double-edged sword  
  • 16:26 and how you think about the opportunity,  but how do we bridge this gap of trust?
  • 16:30 [David R. Malpass]: Right. Thanks. It clearly is  
  • 16:35 a double-edged sword and like many things,  if you MIS misuse them, they're going to  
  • 16:40 cause some harm and if you use them well, it's  going to be very advantageous. I guess my thought  
  • 16:48 has been that if there's a regulatory structure  within a country, that allows the expansion of the  
  • 16:58 digital systems, of the data systems and gives  and thinks through in the country's own norms,  
  • 17:06 what's a reasonable way to proceed? We see the  differences, obviously between Europe, the US,  
  • 17:12 China, and in how they think about data privacy.  Well, that's true across the developing world.
  • 17:20 [David R. Malpass]: 
  • 17:21 I think the A way that we can proceed  is for countries to recognize the  
  • 17:28 value, and then have a lot of transparency in what  their rules are. So that the regulatory framework  
  • 17:38 is not arbitrary, and that will allow some of the  expansion. One other thing I'll mention that's  
  • 17:46 related is the avoidance of monopolies or the  allowance of innovation in a rather rapid way.  
  • 17:56 It's really important, I think for developing  countries to allow that change and that's  
  • 18:02 very true in the post... If we can get to a  post-COVID world, I expect it to be very different  
  • 18:08 in the pre-COVID world in terms of the services  that people want that and need. So it's all the  
  • 18:16 more important to have that both transparency  and a regulatory framework that will work.
  • 18:21 [Raj Kumar]: President Kaljulaid,  
  • 18:22 you were talking about your experience  in Estonia and how it may be relevant  
  • 18:25 to countries regardless of their income level. I  wonder what your experience is on this particular  
  • 18:30 point about trust, right? Where people are now,  they're using a digital identification. They're  
  • 18:34 connecting with government. Digitally, data is  being transferred and held. How do you ensure  
  • 18:38 people feel trust in that system? They don't think  it's abused. How should we think about that issue?
  • 18:44 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: By creating  
  • 18:47 permissive legal space for technologies to  thrive, but at the same time, giving people  
  • 18:51 the guarantee that data is not misused. You said,  to begin with that data is a double-edged sword,  
  • 18:59 but frankly speaking, I don't know anything  humankind has created starting from firearm  
  • 19:06 demand, which isn't. Everything is. I mean,  everything has a positive and a negative use.
  • 19:11 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: The difference here is that previously we  
  • 19:14 had the time and space because the technological  development was relatively slow, which meant that  
  • 19:21 our norms be the illegal or just customs could  develop in the same rhythm. I mean, we had 100  
  • 19:27 years to create traffic code before we got the  highways. Didn't we? Nowadays, what we have is  
  • 19:33 that technological development is faster than  of course our natural norm creation as a society  
  • 19:40 and even faster than our legal cycles, our tech  cycles are shorter than legal cycles. Which means  
  • 19:46 that we simply don't have time to create national  and international law for the current technology.
  • 19:53 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: It's always slower. The  
  • 19:54 technology will be already, I mean, on another  planet when we reach this. For some reason, we  
  • 20:02 mishandle this badly. We try to regulate  even stronger, the pathways, the processes,  
  • 20:09 rather than objectives. AI give you a very simple  example, grounded deeply in analog technologies.  
  • 20:16 Previously, we all said that our doctors  need to keep our private files safe.  
  • 20:23 Nowadays, when we regulate technology, we try not  to say, "File has to be kept safe." We try to say,  
  • 20:30 "It has to be kept in a windows room with screen  door in a cupboard with this type of lock."  
  • 20:38 See the difference. We are going in a intuitive  way, but it's totally wrong. What we need to do  
  • 20:45 is we need to regulate sector neutrally and  current technology neutrally for the future,  
  • 20:52 the objectives and outcomes, which means we need  to regulate who has the right to gather data?  
  • 20:58 Who has the right to handle data? And  how data is not only used in an well,  
  • 21:04 analyzed way, for example, but also how it  is disposed of and lead technology creators  
  • 21:11 and apply us, to demonstrate us that  they do apply these kind of standards.
  • 21:16 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: In Estonia, for example,  
  • 21:18 the government has set itself a standard that it  only asks citizens for any kind of data once. It's  
  • 21:27 called once only principle, if you have been given  this information by a person once, this is my  
  • 21:33 address, this is where I live. This is with whom  I live. The government cannot ask second time.  
  • 21:38 It has to be able if a citizen consents to find  this in its files, and we don't have one big file.  
  • 21:46 We have actually quite separated the proportions  of data in all the data files in the government.
  • 21:51 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: Second promise which government made was,  
  • 21:54 it's only each and every citizen who can  aggregate all the data, which concerns this  
  • 22:00 particular citizen. Nobody else can. Third, every  time somebody has looked at somebody's data in the  
  • 22:09 government's files, there is a concrete, digital  fingerprint of a person, not an entity. It's  
  • 22:15 not like police check my files. It's a concrete  police officer or [inaudible 00:22:20] officer,  
  • 22:20 and I have the right to query. If the answer  doesn't satisfy me, I will complain and the state  
  • 22:27 takes this person who was not nosing in my  file to the court. Now, all these principles  
  • 22:32 have applied for 20 years in Estonia and digital  ecosystem. Nevermind, which kind of technology  
  • 22:39 underlies this system. It's tech-neutral,  it's sector-neutral, it's general. It's easy  
  • 22:44 to understand for the people and therefore, easy  to verify. This is how we have created the trust.
  • 22:51 [Raj Kumar]: Brad, your book  
  • 22:53 makes the exact same point. It's titled Tools  and Weapons. The idea that technology can  
  • 22:58 be a good thing and a bad thing  as the president describes.  
  • 23:02 She's talking about the need for principles, as  opposed to very detailed regulatory frameworks,  
  • 23:07 to start at that framework level, not to say  precise what you do. I guess what the report  
  • 23:11 is getting at too, though, is that there are  more opportunity... If we can look at data,  
  • 23:15 not as just something to be controlled, but look  at it, the opportunity to improve lives. Take the  
  • 23:22 medical example, your medical records example, the  metadata there. Might actually be very valuable.
  • 23:27 [Raj Kumar]: If you can ensure  
  • 23:28 it's anonymized. If you can, not violate the  people's privacy, there may be a lot of benefit.  
  • 23:32 I guess, I wonder how you see this balance in the  double-edged sword frame here. Are we too much on  
  • 23:38 the over-regulating details or are we moving in  the right direction or is it a open playing field  
  • 23:45 and a race to the bottom where companies who  don't subscribe to these kinds of principles,  
  • 23:49 look for the loopholes and do what they want  while there isn't a strong regulatory system?
  • 23:54 [Brad Smith]: Well, I think right now,  
  • 23:55 it's still early days. I do think as everyone  is capturing, we have to start by agreeing on  
  • 24:01 the problems that we want regulation to solve  and I think the word trust is very apt. We need  
  • 24:08 to protect people's privacy. We need to protect  the data security so it's not breached or stolen.  
  • 24:15 I think we do need to ensure that there's  competition and that this doesn't add to market  
  • 24:22 domination by a small number of companies. I  think we need to ensure that it serves the purpose  
  • 24:29 that governments are seeking to advance and  that is in this context, economic development,  
  • 24:35 the sustainability of the planet, broad-based  public health and the like. I do think having  
  • 24:41 a set of straightforward principles is  key. I think it's such a good, a point.
  • 24:45 [Brad Smith]: What we really need is  
  • 24:48 something that is technology-neutral, so that  as the technology changes, we don't find that  
  • 24:54 the regulation has unintended consequences. Then  we can let people go to work. I will say though,  
  • 25:01 the other thing that I think is worth keeping in  mind is every country in so many ways has an equal  
  • 25:07 opportunity to create data. This isn't like  looking for oil or some other raw material  
  • 25:15 that human history would guide us towards. The  truth is there's really only two things that  
  • 25:22 over the next 20 years will probably determine  how much data a country creates. The first will  
  • 25:27 be the size of its population and the second  will be the number of digital devices it has.
  • 25:34 [Brad Smith]: These don't need to be  
  • 25:35 the world's biggest digital devices. Although you  do need some data centers to put this data to use.  
  • 25:40 But fundamentally it's phones.  It's going to be billions of very  
  • 25:45 small devices through the internet of  things. The truth is 20 years from now,  
  • 25:51 Africa should probably be the continent that is  creating some of the largest amounts of data in  
  • 25:57 the world. And then the key will be to ensure  that it not only serves economic development,  
  • 26:03 but the broader public good. I will say, this is  the last aspect where international collaboration  
  • 26:10 and regulation and an organization like the  WTO and the World Bank becomes so important.
  • 26:16 [Brad Smith]: Yeah. I just think it's  
  • 26:19 probably not realistic to think that there's going  to be 50 huge data centers in every country in  
  • 26:25 Africa. You're going to need to move some across  borders so that it can be used in a broader way.  
  • 26:33 But governments are only going to be comfortable  with that, if there is some kind of international  
  • 26:38 legal framework in place. The faster we do  get to some shared understanding of that,  
  • 26:45 I think the faster we'll see the creation and use  of data accelerate to serve economic development.
  • 26:51 [Raj Kumar]: 
  • 26:52 Yeah. And I guess I wonder for you and Ngozi,  to what extent do you feel like lower income  
  • 26:56 countries are part of this? Are engaged in this  discussion today? You're actively negotiating,  
  • 27:02 actively looking at trade agreements.  Are Brad's points being reflected in  
  • 27:07 the current negotiations, ongoing? Are you hearing  it from presidents of low income countries that  
  • 27:11 they want to think about the future of digital  businesses, data centers, other related issues?
  • 27:17 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: Well, thank you, Raj. I,  
  • 27:20 I think building on both what Brad said,  and President Kersti of Estonia said,  
  • 27:28 two or three points. We just have to recognize  that for many countries, this discussion  
  • 27:37 sometimes about data and digitization may seem  esoteric because the basics of what it needs,  
  • 27:45 the countries need to participate and generate  data, make use of it is sometimes missing. This is  
  • 27:52 why many countries talk about the digital divide.  The shear lack of infrastructure, sometimes  
  • 27:59 impedes countries from participating  in these discussions that they should.  
  • 28:04 The President of Estonia was saying you don't  have to be rich to be able to have e-Government  
  • 28:10 and participate. That's true to some extent,  once you have the basic infrastructure in. But  
  • 28:16 for many countries laying this infrastructure  is very expensive, so we need to think about  
  • 28:21 that. How do we get countries to participate when  they don't even have the access to the internet.
  • 28:28 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: You look at the numbers, okay, our young  
  • 28:30 people on the continent, about 43% of them have  access. But overall population, 15%. So you can't  
  • 28:37 even begin to talk of people really participating  when they don't have that. This is something we  
  • 28:44 need to really focus on, that digital divide. If  we don't solve it, instead of data being a good,  
  • 28:51 we are going to have more inequality, which  poor up countries and people are left out.  
  • 28:57 The second thing is trust. If people feel the  data works for them, then they will be willing  
  • 29:05 to participate in sharing their own data. To the  extent we've seen people see their data being used  
  • 29:12 to give them access to services, conditional cash  transfers, access to other government services,  
  • 29:20 using it to get them access to education and  health, vaccination for their children, et cetera.
  • 29:26 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: People are less mistrustful and more willing  
  • 29:29 to engage. So I think, it's one thing as the  report says to have data, is another to extract  
  • 29:36 value from that data. The fact that many low  income countries don't have the capacity yet to  
  • 29:43 extract that value makes them leery of engaging  in discussions on data governance. I think this  
  • 29:50 is one issue we really have to tackle head on,  how do we bridge this digital divide and how-
  • 29:59 [Raj Kumar]: Ngozi, Brad talked about the amount of data  
  • 30:01 is determined by the size of the population and  the number of digital devices and your point is,  
  • 30:06 for many of these countries, the number of digital  devices, the number of connected devices is very  
  • 30:10 small and this gets into a theme we wanted to  get into, today. We're getting some questions  
  • 30:14 about it. That is, we've seen in  the pandemic at the very beginning,  
  • 30:18 there was this idea that this was the great  equalizer. Everyone is affected by COVID, but  
  • 30:24 we realize quickly it's actually a very unequal  situation and it's exacerbating that inequality.  
  • 30:30 Is data the same thing? Are we going to basically  see, that advanced economies, wealthier people  
  • 30:36 have many devices, they're much more connected.  They're moving to 5G. They're moving to AI.  
  • 30:41 While many others really are still using  a feature phone or not connected at all.
  • 30:45 [Raj Kumar]: Is the divide  
  • 30:46 going to get worse before it gets much  better? I pose that to you and to everyone,  
  • 30:50 as we start to get toward the end  of the conversation and think about  
  • 30:53 what is this new social contract like? What  is required of all of us to avoid that future?
  • 31:01 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: Well, I really think that,  
  • 31:03 that's the issue. If we don't make the effort  to include countries that are left behind  
  • 31:13 in terms of this access to digital infrastructure,  then we're going to have increasing inequality.  
  • 31:22 They will have, less access to these devices,  less ability to participate, less desire to engage  
  • 31:29 in global discussions on governance. So we have  to bear that in mind and that means that a large  
  • 31:36 part of the population is left out. Can this be  solved? Yes, absolutely. That's why I say that for  
  • 31:42 an organization like the WTO, my interest is  in partnering with David at the World Bank,  
  • 31:48 partnering with the regional development banks to  make sure this infrastructure is provided, one,  
  • 31:54 to those countries that don't have it. Two,  we build capacity for regulatory frameworks.  
  • 31:59 If we do all of this, then instead  of having increasing inequality,  
  • 32:03 we will bring closer together those low  income countries that are logging behind.  
  • 32:08 That's the point I really would like to make.  The world has to pay attention to this because  
  • 32:14 a world in which we have inequality of  access and use of data is not a good world.
  • 32:19 [Raj Kumar]: Go ahead, Brad.
  • 32:22 [Brad Smith]: One thing I would add to that is  
  • 32:25 obviously the digital divide is  very pronounced in the world today.  
  • 32:30 I think one of the big questions for the next  decade is will this get better or will this get  
  • 32:35 worse? It will go in one direction or the other.  If you look at the history of technology and how  
  • 32:41 quickly it reaches places that are underserved, I  think one thing to always look at, is whether the  
  • 32:48 technology that's used to move something, whether  it's electricity or data or anything else,  
  • 32:54 ask whether it's done on a wire or can be done  wirelessly. Anything that can be done wirelessly  
  • 33:01 is the game changer. It is cheaper and it can  leapfrog your wired technology. Electricity  
  • 33:08 cannot be delivered wirelessly, but most  of what we're talking about today can.  
  • 33:14 What that means in the first in is in addition  to continuing to build out undersea cables,  
  • 33:19 that's the wired portion, look to Low  Earth Orbiting satellites. They will  
  • 33:24 be one of the defining technologies of this  decade and they can reach the entire planet.
  • 33:29 [Brad Smith]: Second, I think,  
  • 33:30 especially for a lower income countries, you  don't need to reach every building or every home  
  • 33:38 through a fiber optic cable under the  ground. You'll want that in your urban  
  • 33:42 areas, it will be critical, but use spectrum,  use wireless spectrum. When I look for example  
  • 33:49 around the world, and I see who is using say TV  white spaces, which is effective for broadband,  
  • 33:55 the countries that are really at the forefront are  countries like Kenya or Nigeria or Columbia, where  
  • 34:02 there is an interest in putting unused spectrum  and leapfrogging some of the other countries  
  • 34:10 where you have more legacy providers fighting over  that spectrum that has made it scarcer. Of course,  
  • 34:16 in addition to reaching people through broadband,  we need each them with two other things as well.
  • 34:22 [Brad Smith]: One is devices.  
  • 34:24 So we have to keep figuring out for us,  in our industry, how do we make them  
  • 34:28 cheaper? How do we make them more available?  Then the last thing is skills. Yeah, it's not  
  • 34:35 enough just to equip people with the device and  a connection to the internet. This is where the  
  • 34:40 development banks, the world bank and all of the  other development banks, I think are going to  
  • 34:45 need to be at the forefront in expanding digital  skilling programs in partnership with governments.
  • 34:51 [Raj Kumar]: Maybe I could just bring David in,  
  • 34:53 on this one point about, you're talking about the  cost of devices and they have to come down Brad.  
  • 34:59 There's a data point in the, in the reports saying  for the 20% of the world's poorest households,  
  • 35:05 the cost of an entry level smartphone  today is 80% of monthly income, right? So,  
  • 35:11 what David is doing at the World Bank focusing on  the 800,000,000 or so people at the very bottom,  
  • 35:16 the people living on less than a dollar, 90 a day,  
  • 35:18 how do we ensure David, they aren't  left out of this digital revolution?
  • 35:22 [Brad Smith]: Thanks, Raj. We can think of it as,  
  • 35:28 I think there is a digital divide. So if we focus  a lot on that, we're going to maybe come up with  
  • 35:35 solutions that aren't optimizing for the  people. The biggest value for people are often,  
  • 35:42 maybe it's not the smartphone, it's any kind of  digital data that has financial information on it.  
  • 35:49 As we've seen in Kenya, a good measure of  the success of the system is the number of  
  • 35:57 transactions that occur and what the cost per  transaction is. So if you can have a billion  
  • 36:03 transactions at a small fraction of ascent,  you're probably providing huge value in gains  
  • 36:10 for people that are very low, on the income scale.  That's what's going on in quite a few countries.  
  • 36:17 I think the things Brad said made sense, as  far as choosing where you can use the spectrum.  
  • 36:28 That's important and the regulatory  structure, I think for countries to do that,  
  • 36:33 I want to note, monopoly power is  problematic for some of the countries.
  • 36:39 [Brad Smith]: For example, in west Africa,  
  • 36:41 there's, there's a pretty tight monopoly on  the fiber optic cable itself. That creates  
  • 36:48 limitation. I think having an environment that  allows competition and innovation is going to  
  • 36:58 be important. I wanted to mention, in addition  to, or I think as we define financial inclusion,  
  • 37:08 we should be doing that, not so much in terms of  a bank account anymore, but in terms of access to  
  • 37:14 really low cost transactions. If your income  per day is five dollars per day, you can't  
  • 37:21 afford a transaction that's 10 cents. You need a  transaction that's cheaper, and you need a lot of  
  • 37:28 them in order to survive, in order to innovate  and have children learn the systems. I think we  
  • 37:37 should focus some on the actual infrastructure  and those parts of the developing world that  
  • 37:43 haven't allowed, or are not moving forward in  terms of low cost transactions. I'll mention that.
  • 37:51 [Raj Kumar]: Yeah. I appreciate David, you  
  • 37:53 expanding the conversation around data, because  obviously we often will go directly to things like  
  • 37:58 digital data that are you produced on devices,  but as you say, it really touches everything,  
  • 38:02 including financial data. So we're getting  to the end of the conversation and I wanted  
  • 38:05 to try to leave people with an action point,  right? With something that we can actually do,  
  • 38:11 given what this report is calling all of us  to do. The question I want to ask everyone is  
  • 38:16 what is the most important contribution  data can make to improve people's lives,  
  • 38:21 and what more need do we need to do to get there?  Maybe we can start with you, President Kaljulaid,  
  • 38:26 I'd love to get everyone's take  on this. What's the one thing,  
  • 38:29 the most important contribution data  can make to improve people's lives?
  • 38:32 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: Well, the way we started here in Estonia  
  • 38:39 was to declare access to internet a human right?  Of course, we didn't write it in the law, exactly,  
  • 38:44 but this is how we acted. I would re really like  to relate to something which was said before. It  
  • 38:50 was said before that, I mean data and digital  accesses, I mean, have their costs and digital  
  • 38:57 services have their costs to be delivered.  But frankly speaking, let's take an analogy  
  • 39:03 from the paperwork world. If you have an universal  or means-tested child support in any country,  
  • 39:10 then delivering it by internet applications  and I mean, simple transactions,  
  • 39:15 which can be more or less automatized from state  budget to people while bank accounts or cell phone  
  • 39:20 accounts, I don't mind, is definitely cheaper than  having a paper-based, office-based development.
  • 39:27 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: Which means that, I mean,  
  • 39:28 if you didn't have means to do these services  before you are not going to have them today,  
  • 39:33 neither, simply because you have technology. But  technology makes it inherently easier and cheaper  
  • 39:40 to deliver for people. But inclusivity doesn't  happen all by itself. 20 years ago in Estonia,  
  • 39:47 if you think everybody had even a fixed line  phone at home, you're wrong. But what we did was  
  • 39:52 we declared internet a human right  and if you had a school or a library,  
  • 39:58 you had an internet access point through which  you could use government eServices. So everything  
  • 40:04 starts with making your legislation to withdraw  everybody in. That's the most important thing.  
  • 40:11 If you want to achieve inclusivity, you have  to act political, you have to act regulatory  
  • 40:18 way. You cannot just sit back and wait this to  happen. It cannot be delivered in any other way.
  • 40:24 [Kersti Kaljulaid]: The last moment is that we very often  
  • 40:27 think that governments don't matter. Governments  do matter. The digital transformation in Estonia  
  • 40:33 only happened because government and private  sector created the digital identity for each and  
  • 40:38 everybody together. We have loads of countries who  have lots and lots of digital private services,  
  • 40:44 but what is missing link is exactly this  government is not in this digital space.  
  • 40:49 It's not present. That makes the digital space  wild, unsafe and anonymous. You have to drive  
  • 40:57 anonymity from this space. So inclusivity and  lack of anonymity, my two suggestions. Thank you.
  • 41:02 [Raj Kumar]: Thank you very much for that,  
  • 41:04 President Kaljulaid, maybe Brad, we can go  to you for your final thought here. What  
  • 41:07 is that one most important contribution  data can make to improve people's lives?
  • 41:11 [Brad Smith]: Well, I'll just pick  
  • 41:13 one practical issue that I think is the issue  of our time and that's climate and carbon.  
  • 41:20 Data is going to be indispensable to the  world's efforts to reduce carbon emissions  
  • 41:27 and we cannot possibly reduce carbon emissions,  unless we all have a standardized approach to  
  • 41:34 measure it, to monitor it, to just  know how much progress we're making.  
  • 41:39 I do think a point you made earlier is important.  People can look at this and say, "Well, this data  
  • 41:45 thing. What are we talking about? It feels very  esoteric." I put it in a different context.  
  • 41:51 Doesn't matter how old or young you are or where  you live. We all pretty much start every morning  
  • 41:56 doing one thing everywhere. We look at the weather  forecast. We ask ourselves, what's the temperature  
  • 42:03 going to be today? Now the good news is there's  only two ways in the world to measure temperature.
  • 42:09 [Brad Smith]: It's called Fahrenheit  
  • 42:10 or Centigrade, but at least there's only two  and we can go back and forth between them.  
  • 42:15 We have these tools that are everywhere on the  planet. It's called a thermometer. It tells  
  • 42:20 us what the temperature is. We have people who  then accumulate all of that data from the past,  
  • 42:26 and they predict what the temperature's  going to be this afternoon. Just think about  
  • 42:31 that when you get up in the morning and think  about the problem that you want to go to work  
  • 42:36 to solve. In this case, I'll say it's reducing  carbon. It could be reducing COVID. It could be  
  • 42:42 reducing corruption. It doesn't matter what  it is. That same analytical framework that  
  • 42:48 you use to think about the temperature is the  analytical framework that you can put to work,  
  • 42:54 to solve whatever problem you need to address  when you start doing your job in the day.
  • 42:59 [Raj Kumar]: 
  • 43:00 That's a great way to look at it, Brad.  It makes me think, I wonder how many of us  
  • 43:04 look at our phone to see the temperature before  we even look out the window in the morning  
  • 43:07 to see what's happening. Ngozi, maybe I  can turn to you for your thought here.  
  • 43:12 What is that one most important contribution,  data can provide to improve people's lives?
  • 43:16 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: I think that if data can give, and  
  • 43:20 I'm talking very much from the point of view of  people in poorer countries, data that gives people  
  • 43:26 access to services, that can make a difference  in their lives and I'm talking of education,  
  • 43:34 of health. That is what is important. That's what  I think will make people trust the system and  
  • 43:44 participate in it. For me, getting value out of  data for people such that they can feel included,  
  • 43:55 as part of the economy, I think that is very...  That's perhaps the best that one can can hope for.
  • 44:03 [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: How can it help  
  • 44:05 make education more accessible for girls  and for boys, particularly those in rural  
  • 44:12 areas. How can we use GPS data to  track where they are and find them,  
  • 44:17 or those who are in urban slums who have forgotten  that GPS data that gets to them, finds them,  
  • 44:24 and they can get access to these services. How  can we get women access to the internet so that  
  • 44:32 they can improve the economic wellbeing and that  of their family. So every bit of data that can  
  • 44:38 give access to services to improve people's  lives, that's what I think my wish would be.
  • 44:45 [Raj Kumar]: Thank you so much  
  • 44:46 for that Ngozi, and David, maybe  we give you the last word here.  
  • 44:49 What is that important contribution  from your perch at the world bank?
  • 44:52 [David R. Malpass]: Thanks, Raj. And thanks everybody on the... It's  
  • 44:57 really interesting discussion. I don't know  if I have one thing Raj, I want to give three.  
  • 45:02 One is access as Ngozi was saying. One, I  think is an uncensored flow of information.  
  • 45:09 That's really critical. Once you start down  the path of censoring, the information,  
  • 45:15 I think, you lose a huge part of the value of  data and of information. That's critical in the  
  • 45:22 makeup of the whole backbone of the internet. Then  I do want to mention the importance of low cost,  
  • 45:30 digital transactions, financial transactions,  because markets are so powerful. If you think  
  • 45:36 of the course of human history, it's how do  people trade goods and services? Because,  
  • 45:41 that's where a big part chunk of the efficiency  gains come from. So to do that, if the cost of  
  • 45:48 that can be brought down, then people really  respond and are able to move forward faster.
  • 45:54 [David R. Malpass]: I'm sorry, but I give you three, we got  
  • 45:58 to have access. That means infrastructure. That  means regulatory power. We've I think, I think  
  • 46:05 got to have uncensored information so that people  are free within the digital world. Then third is  
  • 46:14 this importance of having a backbone, a financial  backbone that gives you transactions. Thanks, Raj.
  • 46:19 [Raj Kumar]: I think that third one David,  
  • 46:21 is an important underlying of what this report is  trying to do, which is to make us think of people  
  • 46:26 in the world who may be at the very bottom  of that economic ladder. For many of us,  
  • 46:30 a tiny transaction cost might seem insignificant,  it might seem worth it for the way we go about  
  • 46:35 our daily lives. But those very small numbers, as  you said earlier, can add up. I think that's why  
  • 46:40 this report talks about data. Data's not a new  question. All of you have been dealing with it,  
  • 46:44 thinking about it, talking about it in many ways,  but what the World Development Report does every  
  • 46:49 year is it makes us think about an existing  issue in a new way. I think, I recommend all of  
  • 46:54 you haven't seen it yet. It's a free report. You  can download it from the World Bank's website and  
  • 46:58 get a sense for this idea of a new social contract  and what does it actually look like and understand  
  • 47:03 many of the nuances that I think our panelists  ably brought up in the conversation today.
  • 47:08 [Raj Kumar]: I want to thank  
  • 47:09 all of you for a fantastic  discussion. I'm sure people  
  • 47:11 at home are clapping and applauding this group  virtually. It was a really rich conversation  
  • 47:16 and congratulations to the authors of the  World Development Report, 2021. Look forward  
  • 47:21 to seeing all of you on social media and at  the next virtual event like this. Thank you.
  • 47:26 [David R. Malpass]: Raj. Can I give a shout out  
  • 47:30 Carmen Reinhart and her group did a huge job on  this report. It's fabulous. Just coming out today.
  • 47:36 [Raj Kumar]: Check it out. Nice to be with all of you.
  • 47:39 [David R. Malpass]: Thanks.
  • 47:40 [Brad Smith]: Thank you. [Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala]: Bye.
  • 47:41 [Brad Smith]: Bye.
  • 47:42 [David R. Malpass]: Bye all.

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